was stalin responsible for expulsion of germans ?

[wildboar]

[ :arrow: b]Quoted by Sen. Homer Capehart in speech before U.S. Senate, Feb. 5, 1946.[/b]

Since the end of the war about 3,000,000 people, mostly women and children and overaged men, have been killed in eastern Germany and south-eastern Europe; about 15,000,000 people have been deported or had to flee from their homesteads and are on the road. About 25 per cent of these people, over 3,000,000 have perished. About 4,000,000 men and women have been deported to eastern Europe and Russia as slaves. It seems that the elimination of the German population of eastern Europe - at least 15,000,000 people - was planned in accordance with decisions made at Yalta. Churchill had said to Mikolajczyk when the latter protested during the negotiations at Moscow against forcing Poland to incorporate eastern Germany: "Don't mind the five or more million Germans. Stalin will see to them. You will have no trouble with them: they will cease to exist."

so it was stalin beria and soviet union responsible for expusion of germans from eastern europe and east prussia rather than east european countries.

[Roberto]

Two things are wrong with Capehart's contentions:

1. Stalin was no more and no less responsible for the postwar expulsions of ethnic Germans from Eastern Europe. His British and American counterparts agreed to these forcible population movements at the Potsdam Conference.

2. Capehart's figures are somewhat exaggerated. The following I translated from Rüdiger Overmans' Deutsche Militärische Verluste im Zweiten Weltkrieg:

The deaths during flight and expulsion concerned the Germans in the immediate postwar period as much as the fate of the missing soldiers, and similar efforts were made to clarify the fate of the missing civilians or bring families together. A huge scientific project reconstructed the events historiographically, the Federal Statistics Office (Statistisches Bundesamt), the refugees’ associations and the clerical search service did a lot with the financial support of the Federal Government to quantitatively assess the fate of those expelled as accurately as possible. The result can be summarized in the conclusion that about 2 million Germans had been killed during flight and expulsion - not including those from the respective territories who had died during military service.

These casualty figures, however, which for decades have been an integral part of the respective serious literature, are the result not of a counting of death records or similar concrete data, but of a population balance which concluded that the fate of about 2 million inhabitants of the expulsion territories could not be clarified and that it must therefore be assumed that they had lost their lives in the course of these events. In the last years, however, these statements have been increasingly questioned, as the studies about the sum of reported deaths showed that the number of victims can hardly have been higher than 500,000 persons - which is also an unimaginable number of victims, but nevertheless only a quarter of the previous data. In favor of the hitherto assumed numbers it could always be said, however, that the balance didn’t say that the death of these people had been proven, but only that their fate could not be clarified.

[LeoAU]

[ :arrow: b]Quoted by Sen. Homer Capehart in speech before U.S. Senate, Feb. 5, 1946.[/b]

Since the end of the war about 3,000,000 people, mostly women and children and overaged men, have been killed in eastern Germany and south-eastern Europe; about 15,000,000 people have been deported or had to flee from their homesteads and are on the road. About 25 per cent of these people, over 3,000,000 have perished. About 4,000,000 men and women have been deported to eastern Europe and Russia as slaves. It seems that the elimination of the German population of eastern Europe - at least 15,000,000 people - was planned in accordance with decisions made at Yalta. Churchill had said to Mikolajczyk when the latter protested during the negotiations at Moscow against forcing Poland to incorporate eastern Germany: "Don't mind the five or more million Germans. Stalin will see to them. You will have no trouble with them: they will cease to exist."

so it was stalin beria and soviet union responsible for expusion of germans from eastern europe and east prussia rather than east european countries.

revisioninst's rubbish. 4 mln 'slaves'? why not 14 or 40? or was he talkng about German POWs?

[Hawok]

revisioninst's rubbish. 4 mln 'slaves'? :lol: why not 14 or 40? or was he talkng about German POWs?

_____________________________________________________________

I guess he was talking about POWs. Not really difficult to understand. Between : what is your definition of "revisionist rubbish" ?

[Hawok]

Churchill had said to Mikolajczyk when the latter protested during the negotiations at Moscow against forcing Poland to incorporate eastern Germany: "Don't mind the five or more million Germans. Stalin will see to them. You will have no trouble with them: they will cease to exist

_____________________________________________________________

That statement fits into my personal impression of Churchill.

[Roberto]

revisioninst's rubbish. 4 mln 'slaves'? why not 14 or 40? or was he talkng about German POWs?

_____________________________________________________________

I guess he was talking about POWs. Not really difficult to understand. Between : what is your definition of "revisionist rubbish" ?

I guess LeoAU was referring to the extremists of the extreme right who inappropriately call themselves "Revisionists". It doesn't seem to me that Senator Capehart was one of them, however. The quote of Churchill's alleged statement contains nothing I wouldn't have expected from the man who ordered Operation Keelhaul.

[Abel Ravasz]

so it was stalin beria and soviet union responsible for expusion of germans from eastern europe and east prussia rather than east european countries.

Oh, so it had nothing to do with the collective guiltyness of the countries on the losing side. Impressed. No connection between the deportation of several thousand hungarians to Czech pepublic as de facto slaves or to work in the area, the Sudetes, which was deserted at the time, and the government of Czechoslovakia? Why were the Sudetes deserted, one could ask? Because the Germans were forced to leave. Nothing to do with the infamous memorandums of czechoslovak president for the time Benes? That's nonsense. In central european states both the hungarians and the germans were collectively hunted down as guilty, and that was not because Stalin or Berija or Molotov or anybody else you can think of but it was on intuition of the governments of the incriminated countries, and, as the government stands for the population, the people who accepted these rules of hate, too.

Abel

[Oleg Grigoryev]

The funny (well not funny really) thing that Soviet administration in the areas that were annexed by USSR, tried to sabotaged the expulsion order, until they were told they better do it or else. The reasons of course were not the considerations for well-being of German civilians, but purely economical reasons. As any Soviet regions, they were given state plan for production (agriculture, consumer goods, etc) , and since majority of the workforce were Germans – expulsion of them would undermine the timetable for production severely

[wildboar]

Oleg wrote

The funny (well not funny really) thing that Soviet administration in the areas that were annexed by USSR, tried to sabotaged the expulsion order, until they were told they better do it or else. The reasons of course were not the considerations for well-being of German civilians, but purely economical reasons. As any Soviet regions, they were given state plan for production (agriculture, consumer goods, etc) , and since majority of the workforce were Germans – expulsion of them would undermine the timetable for production severely

But oleg what is evidence for it since common logic call for support of local administration for it considering mass frenzy whipped by stalin and beria against germans.

Was expulsion of germans not a war-crime?

[Oleg Grigoryev]

Oleg wrote

The funny (well not funny really) thing that Soviet administration in the areas that were annexed by USSR, tried to sabotaged the expulsion order, until they were told they better do it or else. The reasons of course were not the considerations for well-being of German civilians, but purely economical reasons. As any Soviet regions, they were given state plan for production (agriculture, consumer goods, etc) , and since majority of the workforce were Germans – expulsion of them would undermine the timetable for production severely

But oleg what is evidence for it since common logic call for support of local administration for it considering mass frenzy whipped by stalin and beria against germans.

Was expulsion of germans not a war-crime?

wb I am not even going to talk about frenzy with you till you present some documental evidence that in fact it was supported from above. By that I mean official document and not memories of Russofob Kopelev. Ye, expulsion of Germans was crime, but you attempts to put it solely on heads of Soviet Government is rather ridiculous since it was a collective decision – Soviet and the Western Allies.

[MadJim]

Now you should keep this in mind the victorious Allies never committed any warcrimes - just ask them.

However are gallant Soviet Allies were perfectly happy to point out that the bombings of Dresden, etc were crimes - and of course the enlightened government of the workers paradise would never harm a soul. (This was done only of course after Lend lease was ended and the western dupes gave them the printing plates of the occupation marks)

[Gwynn Compton]

The reasons of course were not the considerations for well-being of German civilians, but purely economical reasons. As any Soviet regions, they were given state plan for production (agriculture, consumer goods, etc) , and since majority of the workforce were Germans – expulsion of them would undermine the timetable for production severely

And that I would suspect for the most part, that they feared that they would be replaced by less educated Russians who had been fighting in the war. Thus reducing the economic value further.

documental evidence that in fact it was supported from above. By that I mean official document and not memories of Russofob Kopelev. Ye, expulsion of Germans was crime, but you attempts to put it solely on heads of Soviet Government is rather ridiculous since it was a collective decision – Soviet and the Western Allies.

Agreed, documental evidence for warcrimes is esstential if blame is to be placed. Certainly the Soviet Propaganda helped fuel the rage against German's that lead to so many horrible crimes being committed as the Red Army advanced through the "Germanized" areas of Eastern Europe and on into Germany itself. However I am yet to be convinced that the Soviet Government laid out such a policy for the murder and deportation of ethnic Germans living in what was to be Russia's sphere on influence.

The only way I feel that such a case could be formed is through pure speculation based on a few bits of evidence. Namely the Soviet Propaganda to soldiers which ammounted to "Kill all Germans" and Stalin turning a blind eye on what his soldiers did. From this one could speculate that in informal discussions, a policy had been agreed on. But even so, there would be documental evidence as orders were passed on down the chain. Given that I'm yet to come across a credible document saying any of this, this route of speculation is pointless, and wouldn't stand up to historical debate.

Yes the Russian's feared having German's living in their terroritory. The experience of 1941-45 no doubt left a huge scar on the collective mind of the Russian people that the Germans were dangerous. This can be seen through, though I'm still trying to find where I read this, the KGB spying on East Germany to make sure it wasn't about to turn on it. However, the Russian's crimes against the ethnic German's of the Baltic, Eastern Europe and Germany itself, seem to stem from more a mass movement of revenge, not from a state initiated blood bath.

[MadJim]

Theres plenty on the subject - tons in German, but in English try :

Nemesis at Potsdam by DeZayas

The story about Churchill using the matchboxes to illustrate the movement of the German, Polish and Soviet boarders are especially illuminating.

[Cantankerous]

See these links for additional info:
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_an ... rld_War_II
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion ... hoslovakia

Although the Soviets undertook some expulsions of ethnic Germans from Poland, early expulsions of Germans from Poland were undertaken by the Polish communist authorities. The expulsion of ethnic Germans from Czechoslovakia was conducted by the Czechoslovak authorities.

[wm]

Stalin was solely responsible in both cases.
He was going to annex a large part of Poland and had to compensate Poland with German territories to make his annexation palatable to the world.
The others, Churchill, etc. just played along having no choice. Stalin made them an offer they couldn't refuse.

Similarily he offered to expel the Sudeten Germans to Edvard Beneš (the self-proclaimed Czechoslovak president during the war.)
The only difference was that Beneš embraced the idea with a vengeance.

There were no Polish communist authorities in it. Poland was Stalin's puppet.
The "Polish" president was a Soviet agent.
All the three most important "Polish" leaders reported directly to Stalin.

At the same time, Czechoslovakia was still an independent country, although strongly influenced by communists.