Greek President Requests Germany Acknowledge Greek Holocaust

[''X'']

The Greek Civil War, fought between the Communist partisans of ELAS and various Greek anti-Communist forces, including both forces of the Greek collaborationist government and Royalist resistance fighters, commenced in 1943, instigated by ELAS.

Many atrocities against the Greek civilian population were committed by both sides, and it is probable that far more Greek civilians were killed by Greek partisans of one faction or another than were ever killed by German occupation forces.

The partisans of ELAS became notorious for their atrocities, particularly in the Peloponisos. The worst ELAS perpetrator was a person who adopted the pseudonym Aris (= the Greek god of war), plus a surname based on the name of a mountain range which I have forgotten (Veloukiotis?). He was considered a sadistic psychopath by Christopher Woodhouse, the British liaison officer working with the ELAS partisans.

So perhaps the Greek Government, rather than demanding an apology from Germany, should recognise that if a "holocaust" occurred in Greece, it was perpetrated by Greeks on other Greeks.

As i Greek i know much more about the communist atrocities.The so called Aris Velouchiotis before the war was a common criminal,later idolized by the communists.He was responsible for the murder of Colonel Psaros,leader of EKKA resistance organazation,and attacks against other Greek non-communist resistance organizations.He is also responsible for treason (declaring that Greek borders should be cut down to Olympus!! and that of the 10.million Greeks only 3-4 should stay alive)

But what has this to do with the atrocities that German troops commited?

Communist atrocities is one thing.
German troop atrocities another.Don't mix those up

In Crete the Germans threatened the Bishop with death if he didn't sign a paper where he agreed that no German atrocities were commited.After taking off his cross,he bravely answered that he wouldn't sign and that he had seen pregant women bayoneted

[Mr Holmes]

Hello Spiro,

I know of these events/tragedies, but were they part of a systematic campaign? Can these atrocities be called a Holocaust?

There was no systematic campaign of the German troops against Greek population.However,when the presdident told about holocausts he was reffering to certain massacres of civilians and not a systematic campaign of the Germans to eradicate the Greek population.Generally speaking,German troops were disciplined and didn't loot,rape etc but certain acts will forever be shameful for those who commited them.And i don't think it's a shame for Germany to recognize and condemn certain acts of unhuman behaviour towards unarmed civilians.

My questions were not questions in the classic sense.

[Mr Holmes]

A few months ago I wrote this (previous page, in reply to Larry D.):

Oh, and this is not about classic "Reds under the bed" argumentation, it is about the dubious reasons that claims (or at least some) are being made.

Earlier in the same post, I alluded to the issue of money, as well.

This is an article I just saw posted on The Australian (newspaper here in Australia):

Court rejects Nazi massacre compo case
From correspondents in Luxembourg
February 15, 2007

EUROPE'S highest court rejected arguments today by Greek citizens seeking compensation from Germany for a World War Two massacre.
Descendants of hundreds of inhabitants of the town of Kalavrita executed by the German army on December 13, 1943, brought the case to the European Court of Justice after Greek courts said they lacked jurisdiction.

The descendants, led by Irini Lechouritou, had argued a provision of the Brussels Convention covering jurisdiction issues created an exception to the rule that Germany was entitled to immunity for acts in an armed conflict affecting non-combatants.

"In the present case, operations conducted by armed forces are a characteristic emanation of State sovereignty," the European Court of Justice.

"Consequently, a legal action such as that brought by Ms Lechouritou and the other plaintiffs for compensation in respect of loss and damage caused by such operations does not fall within the scope of the Brussels Convention."

The massacre in the Peloponnesian town was one of the worst by the Nazi forces that occupied Greece from 1941-1944.

In 2000, then-German President Johannes Rau visited the site of the massacre. He said he was deeply ashamed of what his countrymen did and pledged to keep the memory of the event alive in Germany.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/st ... 02,00.html

[Simon K]

Germany was entitled to immunity for acts in an armed conflict..

The above puzzles me slightly. Its at the heart of the finding but what is it alluding to? What part of the Brussels Convention?

Interesting thread. Just finishing reading it. Usual questionable/outrageous posts.

Simon

[Mr Holmes]

Interesting thread. Just finishing reading it. Usual questionable/outrageous posts.

Simon

Hello Simon, had forgotten all about this thread - although I did like it better when you commended me for the thread rather than the remark about it being questionable and outrageous (only joking with you - no offense intended)

The following brief article explains how some Greek compensation cases -which will probably go the way through Italian courts - have seen an attempt by Germany to overturn Italian court's decision.

Germany Vs Italy In World Court Over WWII Claims
Germany Files World Court Suit To Block Italian Courts Awarding WWII Compensation Claims

AMSTERDAM, Netherlands, Dec. 24, 2008

(AP) Germany has filed a suit at the World Court in The Hague to block Italian courts from awarding compensation to victims of Nazi war crimes.

Germany says the Italian courts have no jurisdiction in cases against Germany as a sovereign state.

It said that in 2004 an Italian court awarded reparations to a person who was deported to Nazi Germany to perform slave labor in the armaments industry.

That decision cleared the way for more claims in the Italian courts, and Germany fears hundreds of additional cases may be filed, including some by Greek nationals seeking the intervention of Italian courts.

Germany asked the U.N.'s highest court Tuesday to rule that such decisions by Italian courts are invalid and unenforceable.

Source: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/12/ ... 5591.shtml

I saw mention of this earlier this year from Greek TV news broadcasts, but didn't really pay much attention to the reports.

[Simon K]

Hi Nick

No I meant some of the posts to the thread. I did find M.M.s usage of the term "cleansed" at an early part of the thread, disgraceful, and of no benefit to his claims.

Simon

[Mr Holmes]

Hello Simon,

My friend, I apologise profusely if I have caused you any offence - I swear I was only joking.

If you want, I can delete that part - sometimes I just get a little silly, and I need that smack to the head every once in a while.

Please let me know.

Kindest wishes for 2009,

Nick

-Sorry to the mods for my going off-topic in this post-

[Simon K]

Not you Nick !! Your posts are fine!!

Simon

[waffen-IDF]

Michael -- You wrote, of Mark Mazower and his work on Greece:

I would think that a study by the Food Economic Institute of Stanford University is to be preferred to the work of an author who may, judging by his Yiddish surname (it denotes a Jew originating from or connected with Mazow, a town in Poland), be reasonably suspected of an anti-German bias.

I notice you didn't give the names of the authors of the Stanford study -- Karl Brandt, Otto Schiller and Franz Ahlgrimm -- no doubt because, using your crude and bigoted "logic" and judging by their German names, they could "be reasonably suspected" of a pro-German bias. For the authors' names, see http://www.booksandcollectibles.com.au/ ... Government

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