10 million rapes on Soviet territory?

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Oleg Grigoryev
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10 million rapes on Soviet territory?

Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 18 Oct 2005 21:22

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Erich Hartmann
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Post by Erich Hartmann » 19 Oct 2005 07:03

10 millions???
How many german soldiers were in Russia? How often would each soldier have to rape repeatedly
to get to such a number? 8O

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 19 Oct 2005 07:20

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Peter H
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Post by Peter H » 19 Oct 2005 07:56

Sander & Johr were the basis for Beevor's estimate of 2 million or so German women raped in 1945.They presented the analysis of Dr Gerhard Reichling in their findings.Detractors of their German estimates state that they push a feminist agenda,all soldiers are rapists etc.Their 1992 work also suggested that based on the Balkan war experience of the early 1990s rape is an everyday event in war.

A translation would be most welcome---sources for their findings could then be verified.

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 19 Oct 2005 08:31

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Csaba Becze
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Post by Csaba Becze » 19 Oct 2005 09:50

Without corrects statistics it's impossible to say exact numbers (and the Germans evidently did not do any statistics regarding the raped women by their soldiers) I guess, it's a very exaggerated number, based only on an estimation.

I have never heard any correct, detailed Soviet statistics regarding these German rapes as well (they concentrated to the bigger war crimes)

According to my experiences (which based on my research), it's a very exaggerated number, altough the Germans raped a lot of women in the occupied Sovietunion. Many times, because the lack of basic food and other needs, the girls and young women were 'very kind' with the Germans in the occupied territory and had sex with them voluntarily, because they wanted just survive this situation (and I respect highly these young women, who taken this situation many times just because they want some food for their kids)

Sometimes the situation was more complicate. For example, some Hungarian soldiers had even wifes in the Sovietunion (it was not allowed oficially, but they lived in the same household for months, even 1-2 years, till the army had to retreat and it was not allowed them to maintain these contacts) These girls were evidently not raped and they lived with their Hungarian men not just for food or fo other goodies. It was just because the people wanted to living in peaceful conditions during that brutal war as well...

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 19 Oct 2005 16:40

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Dmitry
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Post by Dmitry » 19 Oct 2005 16:50

Oleg Grigoryev wrote:
Peter H wrote:Sander & Johr were the basis for Beevor's estimate of 2 million or so German women raped in 1945.They presented the analysis of Dr Gerhard Reichling in their findings.Detractors of their German estimates state that they push a feminist agenda,all soldiers are rapists etc.Their 1992 work also suggested that based on the Balkan war experience of the early 1990s rape is an everyday event in war.

A translation would be most welcome---sources for their findings could then be verified.
so basically .. in this case both 10 million for Germans and 2million for Soviets come from the same source??????????


Beavor source for 2 million as it is writen in his book is this:
Sander, Helke, and Johr, Barbara (eds), Befreier and Befreite. Krieg, Vergewaltigungen, Kinder, Munich, 1992

viewtopic.php?p=729365#729365

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 19 Oct 2005 18:11

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Dmitry
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Post by Dmitry » 19 Oct 2005 18:21

To Oleg Grigoryev

By the way in the link you presented - http://www.frauennotrufe.de/uebergewalt10.html

in this paragraph

Besonders von militärischer Seite wird immer wieder betont, Vergewaltigungen seien ein "bedauerliches Nebenprodukt" von Kriegen. Dagegen sprechen Statistiken:
Die vorsichtigen Schätzungen von HistorikerInnen im Zusammenhang mit dem zweiten Weltkrieg gehen von mindestens 2 Millionen Vergewaltigungen allein auf deutschem Territorium aus - davon etwa 240.000 unmittelbar mit Todesfolge für die Mädchen und Frauen. Gleichsam wird die Anzahl von Vergewaltigungen durch deutsche Soldaten auf russischem Boden auf etwa 10 Millionen[2] geschätzt .


it seems that when they said about 2 million rapes on the German territory they didn't mean that it were only in Soviet zone. It looks as they said about Germany as a whole.

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 19 Oct 2005 18:26

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Ramstein
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Post by Ramstein » 20 Oct 2005 01:23

10 million Could also be an underestimate if we consider the fact that many of the rapes were reported by women to soviets, because not all rapes surely, were reported. But in a three year period I think its more than plausible the figure

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Peter H
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Post by Peter H » 20 Oct 2005 02:37

Beevor used their figures for German women raped because they quoted studies that supported that number.

To support their claim of 10 million Soviet women raped a similar source/s should be in their book.Otherwise they are pushing figures that cannot be validated by any evidence.

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 20 Oct 2005 03:01

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Csaba Becze
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Post by Csaba Becze » 20 Oct 2005 08:14

I am maintaining my opinion, it's evidently an exaggerated number (highly exaggerated). 10 million rapes is a tremendous number.

BTW this topic a bit turned to be a discuss about Beevor's works: some of his books contains significant errors regarding the mentioned topics (especially the Spanish Civil War and the Stalingrad - for example in the Stalingrad book IIRC I couldn't find a single correct statement regarding the Hungarian Army)

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