10 million rapes on Soviet territory?

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Peter H
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Post by Peter H » 21 Oct 2005 16:11

This link mentions Sanders and Johr.In its all embracing view,as I read it, Soviet women forced to work in German brothels would be inclusive in the rape figure.I assume each liason with a German soldier would be classified as a rape.

http://www.wilpf.int.ch/publications/19 ... eifert.htm

Soldiers of Nazi Germany also committed rape on a massive scale. It is furthermore known that the Wehrmacht ran brothels where women were forcibly made to work (Trial of the Major War Criminals before the International Military Tribunal, Nuremberg 1946; testimony of Jan. 31, 1946, Vol. 6:404ff; Vol. 7:456f; see also Hilberg 1961:126ff; Brownmiller 1978:55ff). In the Eastern territories the Wehrmacht used to brand the bodies of captured partisan women - and other women as well - with the words "Whore for Hitler's troops" and to use them accordingly.


A check on the first Nuremberg testimony,January 31st 1946,404ff concerns three rapes in France.The other,Volume 7,456f I cannot find.Hilberg's area is the concentration camps.Susan Brownmiller's Against Our Will: Men, Women, and Rape appears to have some details on brothels set up by the Wehrmacht in Occupied Russia.

Data on the number of Soviet women forced to work in German military brothels would be required.10 milion rapes in say 3 years of German occupation equates to 3.3 million rapes per annum.10,000 women 'servicing' one soldier per day would easily equate to this figure.

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Benoit Douville
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Post by Benoit Douville » 21 Oct 2005 16:17

Oleg,

It cannot be serious that the Germans committed 10 million rapes, I am open to the debate and would like to know really how many rapes the Germans commited in the Soviet Union, this previous post by Peter H is interesting... The Red Army committed rapes on 2 million German, Hungarian, Polish, Ukrainian and Russian women.

Dimitry,

What is this Bible thing? Are you refering to marvelous work of Beevor? Anyway there is no place were they mentionned that the Nazi commited 10 million rapes.


Csaba Becze,

I have the work of Krisztian Ungvary about the Battle of Budapest and I am trying to find the case of the Red Army women soldiers who raped some Hungarian men in 1944/45, is it in the book?

I think we should consider Csaba Becze knowledge , he have a PhD and he wrote his thesis concerning World War II topics...

Regards

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Dmitry
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Post by Dmitry » 21 Oct 2005 16:39

Benoit Douville wrote:Dimitry,

What is this Bible thing? Are you refering to marvelous work of Beevor? Anyway there is no place were they mentionned that the Nazi commited 10 million rapes.


viewtopic.php?p=786814#786814

Well, I repost it. The source of Beevor claim about 2 million rapes:

page 410 of my copy of The Fall of Berlin 1945 (pdf)

Berliners remember that, because all the windows had been blown in, you could hear the screams every night. Estimates from the two main Berlin hospitals ranged from 95,000 to 13o,ooo rape victims. One doctor deduced that out of approximately ioo,ooo women raped in Berlin, some io,ooo died as a result, mostly from suicide. The death rate was thought to be much higher among the 1.4 million who had suffered in East Prussia, Pomerania and Silesia. Altogether at least 2 million German women are thought to have been raped, and a substantial minority, if not a majority, appear to have suffered multiple rape.



In Source Notes he wrote:
p. 410 rape estimates, Dr Gerhard Reichling, and Charite and Kaiserin Auguste Victoria, quoted Sander and Johr, pp. 54, 59



In Select Bibliography:
Sander, Helke, and Johr, Barbara (eds), Befreier and Befreite. Krieg, Vergewaltigungen, Kinder, Munich, 1992

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 21 Oct 2005 17:28

belongs to "that (admittedly off-topic) experiment"
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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 21 Oct 2005 17:31

belongs to "that (admittedly off-topic) experiment"
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David Thompson
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Post by David Thompson » 21 Oct 2005 18:06

From the IMT proceedings, vol. 7:

14 Feb. 46

* * *

The bestial acts of violence perpetrated against the women everywhere testify to the profound moral corruption of the criminals. I shall quote from that passage in the note which Your Honors will find on Page 4, Paragraph 4, of the document book:

"Women and young girls are vilely outraged in all the occupied areas.

"In the Ukrainian village of Borodayevka, in the Dniepropetrovsk region, the fascists violated every one of the women and girls.

"In the village of Berezovka, in the region of Smolensk, drunken German soldiers assaulted and carried off all the women and girls between the ages of 16 and 30.

"In the city of Smolensk the German Command opened a brothel for officers in one of the hotels into which hundreds of women and girls were driven; they were mercilessly dragged down the street by their arms and hair:

"Everywhere the lust-maddened German gangsters break into the houses, they rape the women and girls under the very eyes of their kinfolk and children, jeer at the women they have violated, and then brutally murder their victims.

"In the city of Lvov, 32 women working in a garment factory were first violated and then murdered by German storm troopers. Drunken German soldiers dragged the girls and young women of Lvov into Kesciuszko Park, where they savagely raped them. An old priest, V. I. Pomamew, who, cross in hand, tried to prevent these outrages, was beaten up by the fascists. They tore off his cassock, singed his beard, and bayonetted him to death.

"Near the town of Borissov in Bielorussia, 75 women and girls attempting to flee at the approach of the German troops, fell into their hands. The Germans first raped and then savagely murdered 36 of their number. By order of a German officer named Hummer, the soldiers marched L. I. Melchukova, a 16-year-old girl, into the forest, where they raped her. A little later some other women who had also been dragged

456

14 Feb. 46

into the forest saw some boards near the trees and the dying Melchukova nailed to the boards. The Germans had cut off her breasts in the presence of these women, among whom were V. I. Alperenko, and V. H. Bereznikova.

"On retreating from the village of Borovka, in the Zvenigorod district of the Moscow region, the fascists forcibly abducted several women, tearing them away from their little children in spite of their protests and prayers.

"In the town of Tikhvin in the Leningrad region, a 15-year old girl named H. Koledetskaya, who had been wounded by shell splinters, was taken to a hospital (a former monastery) where there were wounded German soldiers. Despite her injuries the girl was raped by a group of German soldiers and died as a result of the assault."


This is a quote from one of the Soviet prosecutors, Col. L.N. Smirnov, reading from the contents of a diplomatic note of protest, submitted to the German government by the People's Commissar for Foreign Affairs of the U.S.S.R., V. M. Molotov, dated 6 January 1942. This protest was in turn submitted to the Tribunal as Exhibit Number USSR-51.

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/proc/02-14-46.htm

There are a number of other rape accounts involving German soldiers in the USSR scattered throughout vol. 7 as well, but the Soviet prosecutors did not provide any estimates of total rapes -- at least in that volume.

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Csaba Becze
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Post by Csaba Becze » 24 Oct 2005 08:04

Krisztián mentioned in his book four diferent events, when a Soviet women soldier raped Hungariam men.

I found another source as well: the Swiss embassy in Budapest wrote a detailed report about the brutality and cruelty of the Red Army after the Hungarian capital was captured. They mentioned not just the mass rape of the Hungarian female population and other crimes, but they mentioned the Soviet women soldiers rapes against Hungarian men too.

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Dmitry
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Post by Dmitry » 24 Oct 2005 08:58

Csaba Becze wrote:Krisztián mentioned in his book four diferent events, when a Soviet women soldier raped Hungariam men.

I found another source as well: the Swiss embassy in Budapest wrote a detailed report about the brutality and cruelty of the Red Army after the Hungarian capital was captured. They mentioned not just the mass rape of the Hungarian female population and other crimes, but they mentioned the Soviet women soldiers rapes against Hungarian men too.

I have no doubt that those Swiss and this hungarian writer could parrot some barrack-room rumors. I doubt that Oleg should be glad if we proceed any further on this case in his topic. Would you post the Swiss document and excerpts from the hungarian guy in a new topic to see what exactly they wrote and if their claims have a valid basis. Thank you.

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Ebusitanus
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Post by Ebusitanus » 27 Oct 2005 17:56

I specially liked it when Oleg dismissed on the old forum any and all rapes done by Soviet personell and aduced the open willingness of the German women to bater her body for some canned food. Perhaps we should take up Oleg on his old deductions on this 10 million figure.

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 27 Oct 2005 18:13

belongs to "that (admittedly off-topic) experiment"
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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 27 Oct 2005 18:16

belongs to "that (admittedly off-topic) experiment"
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yabint
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Post by yabint » 27 Oct 2005 20:46

Peter H wrote:Data on the number of Soviet women forced to work in German military brothels would be required.10 milion rapes in say 3 years of German occupation equates to 3.3 million rapes per annum.10,000 women 'servicing' one soldier per day would easily equate to this figure.


This sounds reasonable, and assuming that each woman 'serviced' more than one soldier a day, the actual number of women working in military brothels could be much lower and still meet the 10 million number.

How much information is know about German military brothels in the Soviet Union? Were they common? Have any German officers been convicted for forcing women to work in a brothel against their will?

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Jaybird
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Post by Jaybird » 10 Nov 2005 19:26

This may have been mentioned before, but Mrs. Sander is definitely very feminist - nothing wrong with that as such, but one has to keep in mind that this will lead to a wide definition of rape and probably a tendency to count in one too many rather than one too few.

Personally I agree that forced prostitution is rape, and sexual exploitaion of a poor population is - well at least not consensual sex for that matter.

In terms of "10 million non-consensual sexual encounters", the figure may make sense - but that is not the same as "10 million individuals where raped".

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Post by paratatruc » 13 Nov 2005 19:25

An other interesting fact regarding the German brothel is that even Jewish women were forcibly "enrolled" .
I have seen a picture in the Israeli newspaper Haaretz(which is highly credible) with a women, whose breast was tattooed with the German inscription " Feld-hure".

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Angelo
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Post by Angelo » 15 Nov 2005 04:35

Erich Hartmann wrote:10 millions???
How many german soldiers were in Russia? How often would each soldier have to rape repeatedly
to get to such a number? 8O


Grolier and others give a total of 3.000.000 german soldiers operating in the USSR during WW2. Other sources give figures swinging from 3 to 3.800.000.

It really didn't take that much effort fron just a single man to reach the above 10.000.000
figure. As for me, it's even underestimated if we take into account the the 3 and a half years those troops operated in Soviet territory.

I'll try to find out more, but it will sure take me sometimes before I can gather up more precise data. That figure, however, is not so unbelievable as it may look at first sight.

Regards.

Angelo

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