Finnish atrocities against Soviet civilians

carolwmahs · Post by **carolwmahs** » 20 Oct 2005 00:48

This site is excellent - it allows one to challenge one's existing opinions. I had always thought that the Finnish army was atrocity-free, but some posts on this site say that Soviet civilians were roughed-up or worse when Soviet territory was occupied from '41-'44. Luckily, occasions for these types of crimes by either army was less than in other theaters. Is there any documented, official proof of this?

As an American, I'm of course sadly aware that my own nation's army, along with all others, has committed atrocities. However, the Finnish army has maintained a spotless reputation for 60 years, and I think it's healthy to know the whole truth.

Dmitry · Post by **Dmitry** » 20 Oct 2005 04:33

After liberation of Soviet Karelia in 1944 there was established Extraordinal State Commision. The result of its work was - collection of documents and materials "Atrocities commited by Finnish-fascict occupiers on the territory of Soviet Karelia" (1945) 5,000 copies. For the sake of Soviet -Finnish friendship it never was propagandaized and the whole theme in USSR was forgotten.

Also as far as I know Finnish historian Marja-Leena Mikkola published the book "Lost Youth - Imprisoned by the Finnish Occupiers 1941-44"
http://news.lifestyle.co.uk/lifestyle/780-lifestyle.htm

Hanski · Post by **Hanski** » 20 Oct 2005 08:40

carolwmahs wrote: ...some posts on this site say that Soviet civilians were roughed-up or worse when Soviet territory was occupied from '41-'44.

I agree it is healthy to know the whole truth. Therefore, instead of vague generalizations, concrete cases (documented, if possible) should be discussed. In other AHF threads we have already discussed the Finnish occupation of Karelia, the deaths related to starvation (and the generally poor food logistics situation), the difference in treatment on ethnical grounds (whether Finnish-related or not), and the paid workforce of the occupied areas.

Exceptions do unfortunately occur anywhere in wars, but generally, until proven otherwise, I believe the discipline among Finnish troops was good, and there was a court martial system which functioned professionally and effectively in punishing criminal acts. Finnish front-line soldiers were by their civilian trades mostly small farmers and lumberjacks who had grown in an agricultural society with its conservative values. Atrocities were certainly not part of their culture, and from what I have learned of the accounts of veterans, they made a clear difference between the armed enemy in combat, and civilians or POWs on the other hand.

As part of the peace terms, war criminals on the Finnish side were later specifically sought out by the victors among those named by Soviet civilians or POWs, and duly punished if found guilty. Reciprocally nothing of the kind took place in the victors' ranks, of course.

In post-war literature, there have been a number of Finnish "revelations" written in sensationalist tone (Elina Sana having been the latest), and of course compensation seeking can be another motive when accusing a party known to abide by legal obligations.

I wonder what would turn up if the same criteria were strictly applied to the Allied troops' post-war treatment of German civilians and POWs.

Mikko H. · Post by **Mikko H.** » 20 Oct 2005 09:19

Here are some former threads (from David Thompson's German and European Axis war crimes FAQs at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=52292):

2000 PoWs murdered by Finnish soldiers?
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=51036

Concentration camps in Finland
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=50883

Finland and the "Final Solution" in WWII?
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=36016

Should the Finns have been tried for so-called "war crimes"?
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=17244

A finn selected Ingrians to Natzweiler !
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=58668

Valtoro · Post by **Valtoro** » 20 Oct 2005 11:06

And two more Threads;

Finns are very touchy about certain subjects
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=58139&

Finland and the Nazis
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... highlight=

Valtoro.

Topspeed · Post by **Topspeed** » 20 Oct 2005 13:51

Well time and again Finland is accused by the attrocities Finns made when occupying USSR when waging war from 1941 onwards with Germans.

I hope everyone has the capability to make right judgements about things that took place then.

Fact remains that USSR attacked Finland in 1939 and took land areas that haven't been given back and most likely never will be.

Norwegians and Russians fight about fishing rights in the area that used be also accessible to finnish fishermen before WW II.

Also this thread will be added to those existing.

I just wonder which country could have stayed 100 % clean when attacked by an enemy 40 times it size and fighting for their existence for about 4 years ?

Kimmo · Post by **Kimmo** » 20 Oct 2005 14:45

It's interesting to note that everyone is quickly claiming, that Elina Sana's book is somehow untrue, because it contained information which previously wasn't really public or a well known fact. Still, it happened, did we like it or not.

Also after touring the concentration camps in Poland and buying all of the books which were available, I noticed something interesting in Majdanek. Book about Majdanek which was published in 1984, contained Finns as a one nationality among the victims. When I compared the list of nationalities to the memorial in Majdanek, the Finns were removed, but for example Karelians as a group stand in the Majdanek crematorium memorial.

I think it's good that people are finally starting talk in this country what we did in the war. I'm hoping, that after all of the persons are dead, who might have been involved to anything for that matter, the discussion will really start in this country.
After that, we perhaps might finally look at the other matters, which still are a taboo.

The Jewish Virtual Library lists two concentration camps for Finland:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... clist.html

Oh yes, and I'm one of those scum on earth types......strange isn't it when you think that I like military history? Prejudice...

Topspeed · Post by **Topspeed** » 20 Oct 2005 14:53

Where are Kangasjärvi and Koveri ? I never ever heard of those places.

Certainly Elina Sana has a point there...with his book...it is just pretty odd that 60 + years have gone and no one who was in charge during those times of those happenings are here alive and answering what really was going on. One prison guard ( at least ) is a alive and has said that we ( finns ) were not that clean either. I bet he is 100 % correct.

You gotta remember things are always more complicated than they look like.

Finns did not prosecute Jews for anything...on the contarary. But when it came how to deal with germans who had released finnish pows in the captured soviet camps then certainly finns wanted to "trade" the jews to finns..anyway finns did not label jews in any way; they were soviet prisoners and if known communists then they were most likely to be the first to be "traded". Not saying this makes it any more legal, but it was a necessity when all possible men in arms were needed in a life threathening situation...in a full scale war.

Kimmo · Post by **Kimmo** » 20 Oct 2005 15:10

Topspeed wrote:Where are Kangasjärvi and Koveri ? I never ever heard of those places.
Certainly Elina Sana has a point there...with his book...it is just pretty odd that 60 + years have gone and no one who was in charge during those times of those happenings are here alive and answering what really was going on. One prison guard ( at least ) is a alive and has said that we ( finns ) were not that clean either. I bet he is 100 % correct.

Kangasjärvi and Koveri are now located behind the border, in Russia.

I have been always amazed that we somehow think that our army was somewhat better from rest of the fighting countries. It's a well known fact what Germany did, it's a well known fact what the Allies did, it's a well known fact what Russians did, it's well known fact what Japanese did.

Then comes Finland and we behaved like school boys...come on now, it's not a really serious thought is it?

Esa K · Post by **Esa K** » 20 Oct 2005 17:46

Here we go again...

1. Was the Finnish (military, political, etc etc) policy during the Continuation War to deliberately, and with a plan and agenda, to exterminate, force in to slave labour, terrorize, torture and so on, groups or individuals in the occupied parts of Eastern Carelia? - The answer is a simple and plain: NO!

2. Where there groups or individuals in the Finnish army that committed atrocities in the above mentioned area? The answer here is a simple and plain: YES!

The question then is, in what extent was these atrocities committed? How to go further from here? I totally agree with what Hanski wrote:

Therefore, instead of vague generalizations, concrete cases (documented, if possible) should be discussed.

Then we have to find as much material about as possible about these concrete cases, cause this, quote below, is the crucial topic here:.

...Kimmo wrote:

Then comes Finland and we behaved like school boys...come on now, it's not a really serious thought is it?

School boys or not, maybe it´s so that a part of the thruth is to find in what Hanski wrote:

Exceptions do unfortunately occur anywhere in wars, but generally, until proven otherwise, I believe the discipline among Finnish troops was good, and there was a court martial system which functioned professionally and effectively in punishing criminal acts.

Wich can say that the cases of atrocities are allready known, and the Finnish legal authorities have allready dealt with them during and just after the war, and cause they was so few, it looks like the Finnish army was behaving in this "schoolboy" manner. Not saying that theres nothing moore to find about this, and that I´m not interested in the thruth, but untill concrete cases, if there are such, have been found I think it´s a bad idea to waste time on discussions...

Well, my Swedish 50 öre on this...

Regards

Esa K

Kimmo · Post by **Kimmo** » 20 Oct 2005 18:28

Yes I'm interested about evidence too, but that might take awhile before we can start to discuss about things that were written on paper (assuming that everything was not destroyed when Finland made peace)

There's about twenty kilometers of shelf space in War Archive, which has not been document or organized in anyway. I wonder what kind of things those "few" papers might hold inside? But it will take about 50 years, before those are thoroughly documented and I'm very sceptical to the fact, that anybody would even have the will to really study those papers.

Every researcher in this country knows what kind of reception they can expect to receive, if they find anything that's not so popular.

Elina Sana is a good example and another one is Heikki Ylikangas with his book: Road to Tampere. Most of the people probably remember what kind of fuss was raised, when that book was published.

Uncle Joe · Post by **Uncle Joe** » 20 Oct 2005 19:04

Ylikangas is a sensation driven hack and Sana is a die hard stalinist. She is a prime example of communist historiography. Seemingly there are some duraki who see her propaganda as the truth and nothing but the truth.

Uncle Joe · Post by **Uncle Joe** » 20 Oct 2005 19:06

BTW, Sana´s "book" is best reviewed in a recent Sotilasaikauslehti.

Harri · Post by **Harri** » 20 Oct 2005 19:32

Well, I think we should clearly separate attrocities against civilians (like the topic suggests) and attrocities against soldiers (which is off-topic for this thread).

Anyway in both cases Finns who can be accused of attrocities were under the military control. The highest responsibility belongs to Supreme HQ (Päämaja, PM) which commanded all Finnish troops. Below it were Home Troops Staff (Kotijoukkojen esikunta, Kotij.E) which had military hospitals (in the summer 1941 only) and POW camps (until late 1943) under its command as well as East Karelian Military Administration (Itä-Karjalan sotilashallinto, Itä-Karj.Sot.Hall.) which had the so called "concentration camps" (transit camps) under its command.

All camps were not similar in nature and there was also nearly unguarded and better guarded camps (for those who were not willing to co-operate with the new rulers). Both concentration and POW camps (in East Karelia) were in many cases placed to former Soviet camps (obviously there was no lack of them). In Petrozavodsk (Äänislinna) "concentration camps" were in the best blocks of the city escaped from destruction. Finns knew well that especially the Russian population co-operated with Soviet military authorities also during the occupation and there were good reasons to intern that part of the population. For example USSR did the same to the Finnish civilians and also in USA Japanese people (even those who had US Citizenship) were interned. There were no German style concentration camps although the name is similar.

In both of these two earlier mentioned organizations the number of reservists was especially high. When the officers in active service were usually in the Army Home Troops had "their own" civil guard officers who were usually of older age or disabled former active officers. East Karelian Military Administration had lots of civilian "experts" or "authorities" in their service who held their ranks based on their civilian position, not necessary their military training or military achievements. They included for example police officers of whom also served in Military Police (Sotapoliisi, SP) units.

Sami_K · Post by **Sami_K** » 20 Oct 2005 22:18

Kimmo wrote:
The Jewish Virtual Library lists two concentration camps for Finland:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... clist.html

Oh yes, and I'm one of those scum on earth types......strange isn't it when you think that I like military history? Prejudice...

Nestori Parkkari in his (thin) book "Suomalaisessa keskitysleirissä" ("In a Finnish concentration camp") gives some recollections of both (IIRC) of these camps. Of course, as he was a Finnish communist and actually an inmate in both (IIRC) camps (I have the book but I'm too lazy to eye it through), that might have an impact on this "view".

But AFAIK neither had anything to do with Nazis or the extermination of anyone, being instead prison camps housing mainly Finnish "die-hard" communists. E.g. Koveri (according to Parkkari's recollection) consisted of two small barrack buildings and a latrine surrounded by barbed wire and a few shacks for the guards. I don't think they were "cosy" or "comfortable", but I doubt they differed that much from other remote prison camps on any side during the war.

Cheers,
Sami

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