Finnish atrocities against Soviet civilians

[Tero T]

last one for today or tonight . Tero T

[Tero T]

Before someone goes on line and states I am stirring the pot and labelling me a red. Let me tell you I am pro Finland and anyone who has seen my displays will attest to that. However I am sensitive to all historical information and I like venues like this where it can be thrashed out and discussed. I have 300 pages of documents that I do not have the slightest clue what is on them. So I open the floor and let the experts provide feedback. I will sit back and sip my coffee and watch and learn. Regards Tero T Toronto

[Dmitry]

That's documents of Soviet Extraordinal State Commision set up to investigate atrocities commited by invaders.

First one is 'abstract of list of german-facsist occupiers responsible for cruel Leningrad blockade, shelling civilian objects in Leningrad, Kronshtadt, Oranienbaum, destruction and plundering palaces in Petrodvorec, Pushkin, Pavlovsk'
75 Martola 2 infantry division
76 Hannukskla 10 infantry division
77 Hersalo 15 infantry division
78 Payari 18 infantry division

Second one is testimony of a Russian woman Alekseeva Anna Ilyinichna who was held by Finnish occupiers in camp located in Ilyinsky sovhoz along with many other Russian civilians.

Third document is testimony of a Russian woman Nikonova Matrena Fedorovna who lived in railway station Suna during the Finnish occupation.

Hard reading.

[Tero T]

Thanks Dimitri !

You mentioned " Hard Reading" . Is this because the Russian language has evolved like all other languages and the terminology is "old" . I have been told by a Russian fellow in Canada you has reviewed these documents that they in no way compare in atrocities to what occurred in the German front. Many of the complaints are in reference to beatings, poor food or not enough food in various camps . Also some reports of shootings of partisans by Finnish troops etc. However the detail in the translations will need to be pulled out over time . Thanks again , Tero T

[Dmitry]

By 'hard reading' I meant what those women said about beatings (a 6-year child including), humilating, starvation of 300 civilians to the death.

[Mikko H.]

75 Martola 2 infantry division

Major-General Ilmari Armas-Eino Martola, commander of the 2nd Division 19 May 1942 - 6 July 1944. Not accused or prosecuted after the war.

76 Hannukskla 10 infantry division

Major-General Hannu Hannuksela, commander of the 2nd Division 1 February 1942 - 12 May 1942, died of heart attack on the latter date. Never commanded the 10th Division.

77 Hersalo 15 infantry division

Major-General Niilo Hersalo, commander of the 15th Division 18 June 1941 - 27 November 1944. Not accused or prosecuted after the war.

78 Payari 18 infantry division

Major-General Aaro Pajari, commander of the 18th Division 18 June 1941 - 21 October 1943. After the war arrested on Soviet demand for alleged crimes against Soviet POWs. Released after the Soviet authorities stated that they have nothing against Pajari.

[Dmitry]

75 Martola 2 infantry division

Major-General Ilmari Armas-Eino Martola, commander of the 2nd Division 19 May 1942 - 6 July 1944. Not accused or prosecuted after the war.

76 Hannukskla 10 infantry division

Major-General Hannu Hannuksela, commander of the 2nd Division 1 February 1942 - 12 May 1942, died of heart attack on the latter date. Never commanded the 10th Division.

77 Hersalo 15 infantry division

Major-General Niilo Hersalo, commander of the 15th Division 18 June 1941 - 27 November 1944. Not accused or prosecuted after the war.

78 Payari 18 infantry division

Major-General Aaro Pajari, commander of the 18th Division 18 June 1941 - 21 October 1943. After the war arrested on Soviet demand for alleged crimes against Soviet POWs. Released after the Soviet authorities stated that they have nothing against Pajari.

6 column of the document has a title - ' the nature of the crime' and in the document they are all accused of 'blokade of Leningrad from the Karelian isthmus side'.

[Tero T]

Thank you ! I will post some more of these if requested but I do need to have these translated at some point in time in the Future. Thanks gentlemen . Tero T Toronto

[Tero]

By Dmitry

6 column of the document has a title - ' the nature of the crime' and in the document they are all accused of 'blokade of Leningrad from the Karelian isthmus side'.

Had that kind of reason been put to a tribunal and listed as war crime the outrage in Finland would have assured the Allied Commission in Helsinki a very interesting stay indeed.

[Dmitry]

By Dmitry

6 column of the document has a title - ' the nature of the crime' and in the document they are all accused of 'blokade of Leningrad from the Karelian isthmus side'.

Had that kind of reason been put to a tribunal and listed as war crime the outrage in Finland would have assured the Allied Commission in Helsinki a very interesting stay indeed.

I may guess that Soviet authority considered the Leningrad blokade in which 800,000 civilians died as a war crime.

[Tero]

By Dmitry

6 column of the document has a title - ' the nature of the crime' and in the document they are all accused of 'blokade of Leningrad from the Karelian isthmus side'.

Had that kind of reason been put to a tribunal and listed as war crime the outrage in Finland would have assured the Allied Commission in Helsinki a very interesting stay indeed.

I may guess that Soviet authority considered the Leningrad blokade in which 800,000 civilians died as a war crime.

Indeed. IF the Finnish forces had taken active part in the blockade. Which they did not.

[Harri]

6 column of the document has a title - ' the nature of the crime' and in the document they are all accused of 'blokade of Leningrad from the Karelian isthmus side'.

That's what I expected. Like Tero told Finns didn't partisipate in any actions against Leningrad or its civilians during the WW II. What seems to be common with these officers is that they all served in Finnish Civil Guard before June 1941. And I think that's the true reason why these gentlemen are on this list.

During the war Martola was also the Chief of Staff of Home Troops (Civil Guard) while the others were Commanders of Civil Guard Districts or later Military Provinces which formed the so called regional organization [aluejärjestö] under the command of Civil Guard (during the war Home Troops). Pajari commanded (their title was Commander of the Military Province since 24.1.1941) "North Häme Military Province", Hersalo was the head of "Satakunta Military Province" and Hannuksela of the "Vaasa Military Province". Hannuksela commanded 19th Division in Karelian Isthmus but it was suspended by February 1942. Basically all Finnish Division Commanders had the similar position before the Continuation War but all these mentioned officers had been in Civil Guard much longer already in the 1930's. It is also worth mentioning that all these officers were among the most qualified and appreciated Finnish Commanders (ill-fated Hannuksela commanded 13th Division during the Winter War and his troops bet numerous Soviet units North from Lake Ladoga achieving probably the greatest victories of Finns).

The mentioned 10th Division was actually commanded by Col./Maj.Gen. Jussi Sihvo (until June 1944). It is interesting that his name is missing from the list but for example Pajari who took the command of 3rd Division in 1943 and was replaced by Maj.Gen. Paavo Paalu is there. Also Paalu is missing from the list. Actually both Sihvo and Paalu were discharged from their posts in the summer 1944. Perhaps Soviets thought they would be potential collaborators and they were not accused?

I also consider very odd Soviet Intelligence wouldn't have known that Hannuksela had died? Didn't any of their agents read Finnish newspapers? Usually they knew even the smallest details of their opponents.

Anyway, very interesting documents Tero!

[Topspeed]

As an American, I'm of course sadly aware that my own nation's army, along with all others, has committed atrocities. However, the Finnish army has maintained a spotless reputation for 60 years, and I think it's healthy to know the whole truth.

Is this hypocrisism ? Or are you just giving hard time ? Were you totally unaware that finns were loosely ( acting like ) allies with germans during WW II from 1941 onwards ?

If you really wanted to know the truth then you should start to get deeper into Finno Ugrig race and its origins and into year 1400-1500 to the so called " clubwar ". There has been border clashes between finns and russians before 1939 and 1941.

And I am still looking forward to hear from the attrocities finns committed. I know several hundred civilian prisoners died of hunger and related diseases in the occupied territories. I also know some finnish officers were in close operation with germans and were able to choose fit finnish related men from the german occupied territories to fight against the soviets for their freedom. I also know that ca. 1000 russian prisoners ( among 140 jews ) were excanged to finnish related prisoners with germans.

The operation when finns in 1941 went to ( eastern ) Karelia was called " Liberation of Karelia ". Very nationalistic and a brave move, despite the fact that in Eastern Karelia only 30 % of the people were finns ( or finnish speaking karelians ) by 1941 after Stalins forced resettlements of the locals into Siberia.

[batu]

I would like to add some points to the discussed topic.
Every nation has a historical mythology. AS far as I am concerned there are several widespread myths circulating among finns.
1. Mannerheim didn't attack Leningrad and didn't actively participate in its seige because of his special feelings towards the city.
2. Finland had its 'separate war' and the aim was only to take back the territories lost in the Winter war of 1939-1940
3. the camps in the Soviet Carelia were not true "concentration camps', and somehow they were better that Soviet GULAGs. in other words finns try to justify the existence of those camps on al kinds of grounds.

I think that all these statements are absolutely false, but they according to my personal experience most finnns adhere to these statements.

additionally as far as I know the death rate among the Russian POW put in the finnish camps was one of the highest in the war.
about 1/3 of the POW died from hunger.

I am looking forward to your comments.

PS. I also have serious doubt about the finnish statement that the Soviet attack of Finland in 1939 was a result of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, where Finland was allegedly given to the Soviet sphere of influence. I haven't read the secret attachments to hte Pact, but the fact that Germans actively helped Finns in the 1939 war and considering very friendly relationship established among Nazi Germany and Finland in the late 30s it is highly doubtful that Ribbentrop gave Finland away to Stalin. In most Russian hisotry study-books the MR pact refered only to the Baltic states as a "legitimate" object of Soviet domination.

[Mikko H.]

batu,

welcome to the forum. First of all, all the points you raise have been discussed on this forum, so by making a search you could see what has been going on before (just to avoid flogging dead horses).

By and large I personally agree with most of your points. However, I'd like to hear some further comments on this one:

3. the camps in the Soviet Carelia were not true "concentration camps', and somehow they were better that Soviet GULAGs. in other words finns try to justify the existence of those camps on al kinds of grounds.

What do you exactly mean by "true concentration camps"? And how do you compare the Finnish concentration/relocation camps in East Karelia in 1941-44 with the Soviet Gulags of the same time period?