Another cause of death of Soviet POWs

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Marcus
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Post by Marcus » 10 Oct 2002 18:04

Scott & Roberto,

Please stick to discussing the topic at hand, rather constantly try to attack and provoke each other.

/Marcus

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 10 Oct 2002 18:12

Scott Smith wrote:
Roberto wrote:From the point of view of international law, codified or customary, both aspects are perfectly irrelevant, as already explained.
International Law is as much an oxymoron as Soviet Justice.
:?
Sounds rather helpless, Smith.

Can you provide a legal opinion to back up your contentions, as I have?

If not, better give your keyboard some rest.

viriato
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Post by viriato » 10 Oct 2002 18:32

Roberto, do you have by chance (or know any web site dealing with) the number of Soviets made prisioners by the Germans by month/year and the death rate of the same POW by month/year too?

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 10 Oct 2002 18:38

viriato wrote:Roberto, do you have by chance (or know any web site dealing with) the number of Soviets made prisioners by the Germans by month/year and the death rate of the same POW by month/year too?
I don't think there is a website containing such detailed information.

What I can do is look up the works of Streit and Gerlach.

I will let you know what I find there.

viriato
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Post by viriato » 10 Oct 2002 18:49

Roberto, your research will be indeed appreciated.

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 10 Oct 2002 18:52

viriato wrote:Roberto, your research will be indeed appreciated.
Thanks. I'll try to put together what I have until next Monday.

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Post by David Thompson » 12 Oct 2002 02:24

Michael -- Dan (in an indirect kind of way) asked me why I said what I did, and I answered him. There is no "twist" to the comment. I said it, the observation is reasonably obvious, and I stand by the comment.

This being a "Third Reich Forum" suggests that there will be a certain inevitable focus on acts attributable to Nazi Germany. Your initial post, devoid as the last sentence was of any sympathy whatsover for Soviet POWs, drew attention to the fact that, even if the Nazi authorities mistreated the Soviet POWs, their own country was as bad or worse. The last sentence in your initial post complaining of the ideological predisposition of the Forum contributors appeared to me (and frankly, still appears that way) to be an attempt to compare the criminal policies of Nazi Germany with the criminal policies of another country.

Mention of a second crime necessarily de-emphasizes the first. Furthermore, your comparison suggests that, since Stalin killed his own soldiers who had become POWs, perhaps the Nazi treatment of Soviet POWs wasn't that bad -- after all, if your own country doesn't care, you can't complain about how you get treated by Nazis.

If you didn't mean it that way, fine. However, if you didn't mean it that way, your defensiveness is difficult to fathom. By making your post public, you open its contents to public comment (that's probably why Dan wrote me). Your subsequent posts have set forth your views clearly enough. I agree with your thoughts on Soviet crimes. The Nazi regime is not the only example of a homicidal totalitarian government, in the 20th century or any other. For other examples, complete with statistical comparisons, check out:

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/welcome.html

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Scott Smith
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NEWSPEAK

Post by Scott Smith » 13 Oct 2002 03:06

David, what is your opinion on historians like Rummel who see all History through the Genocide-lens darkly? Is it possible that this "apple-pie" thinking might blind one to the failings of the Democracy-Capitalist system? Is there such a thing as "Crimes of Capitalism"? Or would this notion simply be impossible because of the definition of the terms themselves, a mere exercise in Newspeak? And as for this perfect system itself, would it be necesssary to adopt totalitarian tactics to save it from periodic dictators and other bugaboos--those that "hate us 'cause we're free"?

Food for thought...
:)

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Post by David Thompson » 13 Oct 2002 03:57

Scott -- Interesting questions! Unfortunately, this forum probably isn't the place to discuss them. As for the link, I admire the guy's work. If there's one aspect of government folks can do without, mass murder is close to the top. Rummel has done a good job on the problem without any obvious religious, ethic or nationalistic bias. As for the economic bias you note -- well, yes. I wouldn't call it apple pie thinking, because I'd like to think we could all get along without democide. And there is such a thing as "crimes of capitalism" as well, but mass murder has always seemed worse to me than, say, swindling.

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Post by michael mills » 13 Oct 2002 05:00

David Thompson wrote:
Rummel has done a good job on the problem without any obvious religious, ethic or nationalistic bias.
I have read some of Rummel's works, and I do not think they are worth much, tending to gross exaggeration in most cases. Basically, he accepts claims of mass killing without subjecting them to criticism.

As an example, his estimates of the "democide" committed by the Soviet Union are a gross exaggeration not based on solid statistics. They are not based on solid statistics, but on biassed histories like those of Conquest, and on census material that is open to interpretation in a number of ways.

While I sometimes draw attention to the crimes committed by the Soviet Union as a corrective to the one-sided obsession with the crimes of Nazi Germany, I am resolutely opposed to an unwarranted magnification of them. That's the sort of dispassionate, unbiassed guy I am, unlike the participants in this forum to whom I have referred.

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Scott Smith
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Post by Scott Smith » 13 Oct 2002 06:58

David Thompson wrote:Scott -- Interesting questions! Unfortunately, this forum probably isn't the place to discuss them. As for the link, I admire the guy's work. If there's one aspect of government folks can do without, mass murder is close to the top. Rummel has done a good job on the problem without any obvious religious, ethic or nationalistic bias. As for the economic bias you note -- well, yes. I wouldn't call it apple pie thinking, because I'd like to think we could all get along without democide. And there is such a thing as "crimes of capitalism" as well, but mass murder has always seemed worse to me than, say, swindling.
Thanks, David. I appreciate the response. In spite of this being the Third Reich forum, I think the Lounge is a fine place for off-topic posts. Anyway, regarding "Crimes of Capitalism," I was thinking more along the lines of deaths, etc. as a result of swindling, but your point is well-taken.

Thank you, Michael, for your response as well.
:)

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 14 Oct 2002 10:25

michael mills wrote:That's the sort of dispassionate, unbiassed guy I am, unlike the participants in this forum to whom I have referred.
Is that supposed to be a joke, Mr. Mills?

Are we supposed to laugh?

I don't have to remind Mr. Mills that the most detailed information about wartime and postwar atrocities against ethnic Germans was posted by myself on three threads of this forum and that Mr. Mills' only contribution to one of these was trying to blame those filthy Jews he hates so much for the postwar expulsion of ethnic Germans from Poland, do I?

The threads I mentioned, for those interested, are the following:

“Father, shoot me”
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/v ... 6cd4c7218b

Notes from a Land of the Dead
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/v ... 6cd4c7218b

The Fate of Ethnic Germans in Yugoslavia
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/v ... 6cd4c7218b

And there will be more as soon as time permits.
Last edited by Roberto on 14 Oct 2002 16:00, edited 2 times in total.

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Roberto
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Re: NEWSPEAK

Post by Roberto » 14 Oct 2002 10:35

Scott Smith wrote:David, what is your opinion on historians like Rummel who see all History through the Genocide-lens darkly? Is it possible that this "apple-pie" thinking might blind one to the failings of the Democracy-Capitalist system?
Rummel's figures are generally somewhat on the high side, and he does little other than scan estimates from various sources to arrive at his own "consolidated" estimate.

But accusing him of "apple pie" thinking reveals ignorance of his writings, which include one of the most detailed overviews of American democide that is available online. It can be read under the following link:

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP13.HTM

Photographs of crimes committed by American forces also have a place in Rummel's gallery:

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/RM3.US ... MA.MOM.HTM

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/RM3.US.OLD.MAN.HTM

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/RM3.US ... RDERED.HTM

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/RM1.MYLAI.HTM

michael mills
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Post by michael mills » 15 Oct 2002 07:26

With regard to Rummel, I wrote:
I have read some of Rummel's works, and I do not think they are worth much, tending to gross exaggeration in most cases. Basically, he accepts claims of mass killing without subjecting them to criticism.

As an example, his estimates of the "democide" committed by the Soviet Union are a gross exaggeration not based on solid statistics. They are not based on solid statistics, but on biassed histories like those of Conquest, and on census material that is open to interpretation in a number of ways.
Subsequently, Roberto wrote:
Rummel's figures are generally somewhat on the high side, and he does little other than scan estimates from various sources to arrive at his own "consolidated" estimate.
Seems that Roberto and I essentially agree on the worth of Rummel's figures, although Roberto is not going to admit that of course.

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Post by michael mills » 15 Oct 2002 07:29

Roberto wrote:
Is that supposed to be a joke, Mr. Mills?

Are we supposed to laugh?
Why not? A little laughter would probably do you the world of good, Roberto.

It might help to relieve the severe case of Vertical Auto-Internalisation from which you appear to be suffering.

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