Jewish converts & Karaites

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Von Schadewald
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Jewish converts & Karaites

Post by Von Schadewald » 23 Dec 2005 15:24

Jews are not quite a race and not quite a religion. There has been over the centuries a constant trickle of gentiles who converted to Judaism, more in recent years.

What would the Nazis have done to such a convert? Would they have been sent to the camps, or given a chance to disavow their belief/status, being that by blood lineage they were not of Judaic stock?

The Karaites were of Judaic stock, but the Germans accepted that their claim that they were not "Jews" and they were spared.

paratatruc
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Post by paratatruc » 23 Dec 2005 18:05

Jews are neither a race nor a religion.
They are a people.
As for the Karaites,because of their turkish dialect, the Nazis didn't consider them as member of the semitic race and therefore didn't exterminate them.
Several hundreds of them served in the so called "tatar legion" and in other parts of the Waffen SS.

Von Schadewald
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Post by Von Schadewald » 23 Dec 2005 20:20

So what would the Germans in theory have done with eg an Elizabeth Taylor, who was a non-observant Reform convert to Judaism (on marrying Eddie Fisher http://www.adherents.com/people/pt/Eliz ... aylor.html )?

And to eg a Rabbi Asher Wade (an ex US Army Protestant pastor http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/asherwade.htm ), an observant black-coated Orthodox convert to Judaism?

Are they a) let free, b) let free only if they publicly renounce their Jewish status, c) killed/enslaved?

Was the law covering converts to Judaism encoded at all at Wannsee?

Presumably the converse, Jewish apostates to Christianity eg Cardinal Lustiger and Sister Stein, would still have been gassed, even with Papal intercession?

nny
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Post by nny » 24 Dec 2005 05:51

Von Schadewald wrote:So what would the Germans in theory have done with eg an Elizabeth Taylor, who was a non-observant Reform convert to Judaism (on marrying Eddie Fisher http://www.adherents.com/people/pt/Eliz ... aylor.html )?

And to eg a Rabbi Asher Wade (an ex US Army Protestant pastor http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/asherwade.htm ), an observant black-coated Orthodox convert to Judaism?

Are they a) let free, b) let free only if they publicly renounce their Jewish status, c) killed/enslaved?

Was the law covering converts to Judaism encoded at all at Wannsee?

Presumably the converse, Jewish apostates to Christianity eg Cardinal Lustiger and Sister Stein, would still have been gassed, even with Papal intercession?


Very interesting points you bring up, I have never heard a satisfactory answer to any of these points. In Childers "History of Hitlers Empire" he describes the quasi raical / religious mixture in Nazi Germany that was used to define who is Jewish (you can imagine that this was a very serious question in Germany under Nazi rule, and people were looking for guidelines to follow.) He mentions that if a person had 3 Jewish grandparents (He does not define if these grandparents being Religious or non-religious Jews mattered - IE Germans who had converted to Judaism, not Jews that had emigrated to Germany at some prior time) they were considered Jewish. If a person had 2 Jewish grandparents, they were only considered Jewish if one of them was a practicing Jew (This is where the quasi religous racial stuff comes in). Again he does not specify if the person had to be a 'racial Jew' or a Jew of another ethnicity. What I have inferred (possibly incorrectly) it boils down to is that the Jews are a different race, and should be regarded as so, not as a different religion. IE a German Catholic is still German, a Protestant German is still German, a Jewish German is Jewish, because the Jews do not (at that time) have a country does not in anyway diminish the racial quality of that label. In Mein Kampf, there is a section in which Hitler describes French / British Jewish influence in those respective countries, he believes it is an insult to 'racial' French and British people for these "British / French Jews" to be masquarading as "British / Frenchmen of a special religion", when in fact they are a different race and hold Jewish interests above French / British interests. That of course could simply have been rhetoric to galvanize French and British people against Jews in their country but I believe he honestly believed what he was saying.

I have never read anything describing the dealings of Nazis with Ethnic Germans who had converted to Judaism. I understand that Christians* have always been interested in diversifying, that they travel to all sorts of countries all over the world trying to convert people to their religion in order to 'save' them, were Jews at the same time trying to convert 'gentiles' to Judaism? Was there a large population of Ethnic Germans who were practicing Jews? Possibly it came up so little that they had no specific plan for dealing with it, possibly they did and I've just never seen any specifics. Either way Hitler viewed Judaism as a way to keep the race together in a diverse world, and (Childers mentions) that he probably would have considered a 'converted' Jew (Ie Christian Jew) worse than a practicing Jew.

Here is a website I found online trying to define 'What is a Jew?'

http://www.jewfaq.org/judaism.htm

Here is an article on Tay Sachs disease, which predominately affects eastern european Jewish people (A genetic IE racial disease).

http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/tays ... ysachs.htm

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Post by David Thompson » 24 Dec 2005 08:30

nny -- You said:
What I have inferred (possibly incorrectly) it boils down to is that the Jews are a different race, and should be regarded as so, not as a different religion. IE a German Catholic is still German, a Protestant German is still German, a Jewish German is Jewish, because the Jews do not (at that time) have a country does not in anyway diminish the racial quality of that label.

This was definitely the Nazi view of the matter. See the Erste Verordnung zum Reichsbuergergesetz (First regulation to Reich citizenship law) of 14 November 1935, defining the terms "Jew" and "part-Jew", at:
viewtopic.php?p=558407#558407

See generally the racial criteria used in the various laws on citizenship collected in the thread:

Nazi Anti-Semitic Legislation in Germany
viewtopic.php?t=61972

The main laws on Reich citizenship can be seen at:

viewtopic.php?p=558396#558396
viewtopic.php?p=558401#558401

As for Von Schadewald's question, I have never seen the issue of Aryan converts to Judaism raised in any Nazi document, although there are a number of documents and testimonial accounts concerning Germans (or persons of other nationalities) who had married a Jewish man or woman. I infer from this that the practice of conversion to Judaism was infrequent in 20th century Europe.

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dukeofpain
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Re: Jewish converts & Karaites

Post by dukeofpain » 24 Dec 2005 10:47

Von Schadewald wrote:Jews are not quite a race and not quite a religion. There has been over the centuries a constant trickle of gentiles who converted to Judaism, more in recent years.

What would the Nazis have done to such a convert? Would they have been sent to the camps, or given a chance to disavow their belief/status, being that by blood lineage they were not of Judaic stock?

The Karaites were of Judaic stock, but the Germans accepted that their claim that they were not "Jews" and they were spared.


Decree: "On the Protection of Aryan Blood"



NUMBER 77

Upon recommendation of the Minister of Internal Affairs I hereby issue and proclaim the following

DECREE
On the Protection of Aryan Blood and the Honor of the Croatian People

Article 1
The marriage of Jews and other persons who are not of Aryan descent with persons of Aryan descent is prohibited. Similarly prohibited is the marriage of a person having, in addition to Aryan forebears, one forebear in the second generation who is a Jew by race or other European non-Aryan, with a person who is of the same descent by race.

Which persons are considered to be Jews or non-Aryans is determined by the decree on racial affiliation.

Article 2

Special permission to conclude marriage is necessary in the following cases:

1. For marriage of a person with two forebears in the second generation who are Jews by race with a person having one forebear in the second generation who is a European non-Aryan by race, or a person who is of Aryan descent;

2. For marriage of a person having among his forebears members of other non-European races with a person of the same descent, or with a person having one or two forebears in the second generation who are Jews by race or one forebear in the second generation who is a Gypsy by race, or with a person of Aryan descent;

3. For marriage between citizens and other members of the state [i.e., non-citizens] unless prohibited under Article 1.

Permission for such a marriage is issued by the Ministry of Internal Affairs after consultation with the Racial Policy Commission.

Article 3

Extramarital sexual relations of Jews or other persons not of Aryan blood with a female member of Aryan descent are prohibited.

A male non-Aryan violating this prohibition commits the crime of racial defilement and is therefore punished by confinement in a prison or dungeon. In especially serious instances, especially in the case of the rape of an innocent girl [i.e., virgin], the death sentence may be imposed.

Article 4

Jews or other persons who are not of Aryan descent are forbidden to employ in their households female persons of Aryan descent younger than 45 years of age.

Article 5

Non-Aryans and other members of the state [i.e., non-citizens] are forbidden from flying the Croatian state and national flags and displaying the Croatian national colors and emblems.

All changes to Jewish surnames after December 1, 1918 are hereby declared null and void and must be replaced with the original surnames.

Who is a Jew is defined by the decree on racial affiliation.

Article 6

The Minister for Foreign Affairs will issue orders for the implementation of this decree.

Article 7

This decree is effective on the day of its publication in Narodne Novine.


http://www.pavelicpapers.com/documents/ ... a0002.html






Von Schadewald
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Post by Von Schadewald » 24 Dec 2005 17:58

So Harrison Ford, a Jew with a Jewish mother & gentile father, dies.

Michael Douglas and Stephanie Zimbalist, non-Jews with a Jewish father and gentile mother, also die. David Beckham, with one Jewish grandfather, lives.

I suspect that the Germans weren't interested in a person's religiosity: any person who met their blood lineage determination of a Jew died.

Gentile converts to Judaism would probably be spared, unless they actually volunteered for the camps cf Alain Delon in "Monsieur Klein" http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074916/

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Post by Dan » 24 Dec 2005 18:12

You are making things hopelessly too simplistic. Ford and Beckham would have been second degree Mischlinge, not Jews, and both could have applied for Aryan status and could have served in the armed forces. The last numbers that I saw were 150,000 partial Jews who served in the Wehrmacht.

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Post by Von Schadewald » 24 Dec 2005 18:38

Ford's mother was a Russian Jewess http://www.answers.com/topic/harrison-ford

Jewish law defines him as a Jew. Would Nazi law consider his Irish father as defining him as a conscriptable 2nd degree mischling?

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Post by Dan » 24 Dec 2005 20:14

I take time out of my very busy day to post an obscure historical source

Put on your yarmulke
It's time for Chanukah
The owner of the Seattle Supersonicahs
Celebrates Chanukah

O.J. Simpson, not a Jew
But guess who is? Hall of famer Rod Carew- he converted
We got Ann Landers and her sister Dear Abby
Harrison Ford's a quarter Jewish- not too shabby

Some people think that Ebenezer Scrooge is
Well he's not, but guess who is
All three Stooges
So many Jews are in showbiz
Tom Cruise isn't, but I heard his agent is


http://www.lyricsdomain.com/1/adam_sand ... _song.html

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redcoat
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Post by redcoat » 24 Dec 2005 21:15

IE a German Catholic is still German, a Protestant German is still German, a Jewish German is Jewish,

No he is still a German jew, because being German is not a matter of race, but nationality.
The British, French and Germans are not different races, they are merely different nationalities.


because the Jews do not (at that time) have a country does not in anyway diminish the racial quality of that label.

The Jews living in Germany before 1933 did have a nation, it was called Germany.

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Post by dukeofpain » 24 Dec 2005 22:39

Dan wrote:You are making things hopelessly too simplistic. Ford and Beckham would have been second degree Mischlinge, not Jews, and both could have applied for Aryan status and could have served in the armed forces. The last numbers that I saw were 150,000 partial Jews who served in the Wehrmacht.
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Post by David Thompson » 24 Dec 2005 23:38

This thread well illustrates the perils of oversimplificaton.

Von Schadewald
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Post by Von Schadewald » 24 Dec 2005 23:39

So a Jew is not a nationality, since he is still a Jew even without a land (of Israel).

A Jew is not a religion, since an atheist Jew is still a Jew.

And a Jew is not a race, since it's possible for a negro or an asiatic to become a Jew.

So who is a Jew?!

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redcoat
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Post by redcoat » 26 Dec 2005 00:07

Von Schadewald wrote:
A Jew is not a religion, since an atheist Jew is still a Jew.


In the Muslim faith, an atheist who was brought up as a Muslim is still considered to be a Muslim by others of the same faith.

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