LAH Musikkorps murder

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Rob - wssob2
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LAH Musikkorps murder

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 14 Jan 2006 14:31

This is a quote from an old post from Timo:
The Musikkorps of the LSSAH was formed on 04.08.1933, 36 musicians under
"command" of SS-Sturmbannführer Hermann Müller-John. In 1934 the orchestra
was expanded to 72 men, selected on musical, health and racial
qualifications. In the end the korps had a Sollstärke of 108 Musiker, but
actual strength was 96 men. Musical education took place at the Staatl.
Hochschule für Musik and in several Konservatorien, military training
(parade training) took place together with I./LAH under command of
Truppführern Plöw and Schmidl. Info about several concerts is given, if
you're interested.

Müller-John's official title was Leibstandarten-Obermusikmeister, called
Obumei by his men. He was 1.Musik-Inspizient der SS-VT and Mitglied des
Reichs-Kultur-Senats. He made some radical changes to the orchestra, by
adding Saxophones and other "Bigband" influences. He was respected by people
like Prof. Erich Schumann and Erich Gutzeit (both composers) and
Heeres_Musik-Inspizient Prof. Hermann Schmidt.

In 1945 he committed suicide in Austria, together with his wife and
daughter. According to Lehmann this was his way to find peace with his
involvement in the killing of 50 Polish civilians in 1939 (of whom several
were Jewish
).

According to Hstuf. Keilhaus and Hstuf. Ewert, the Musikkorps was shot at
from a group of houses when their bus halted on a square. Several men were
killed or wounded. Müller-John ordered the men of the Musikkorps and the
medical column to search the houses. Weapons were found and the captured men
were shot. v.Reichenau and von Rundstedt ordered a conduct and a trial and
Müller-John was found guilty by a military court. Dietrich complained to
Hitler and the führer signed a pardon. Officially because "crimes committed
out of anger caused by the way the Poles treated the Volksdeutschen should
not be punished".
But Müller-John considered himself guilty of a war crime.
According to Weingartner he told Paul Hausser: "Wo das Verbrechen beginnt,
hört die Kameradschaft auf!".
Could this incident be an alternate to the "50 Jews shot in a synagogue" courts martial that pursuaded Himmler to get
Hitler to remove the W-SS from military jurisdiction? Or is this describing a separate incident?

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mty
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Post by mty » 17 Jan 2006 00:17

I can't remember the exact setting but I think that synagogue mass murder was committed by a single SS man out of anger of seeing "ostjuden" for the first time or something like that. But in every case, it was a case of a single perpetrator. I think that the Musikkorps incident is less well known.

Edit: It wasn't just a single SS man but instead couple of men from an unspecified "SS artillery unit" together with Feldgendarmerie, according to "Waffen-SS" by Stein.

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Post by michael mills » 17 Jan 2006 00:43

Can their playing really have been that bad?

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mty
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Post by mty » 18 Jan 2006 13:44

I am curious to learn more about that LAH-Musikkorps incident. It is very rare for musical units to be involved in war crimes and/or fighting. I suppose the only one accused was commander of LAH-Musikkorps, obermusikmeister Müller-John?

Pieter Kuiper
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Post by Pieter Kuiper » 18 Jan 2006 16:09

michael mills wrote:Can their playing really have been that bad?
Check the CDs:
Image
http://www.dhd24.com/azl/index.php?anz_ ... 974#zusatz
http://www.dhd24.com/azl/index.php?anz_ ... 002#zusatz

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behemoth
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Musikkorps Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler in Poland

Post by behemoth » 30 Jun 2007 20:04

mty wrote:
Timo wrote:The Musikkorps was formed on 04.08.1933, 36 musicians under "command" of SS-Hauptsturmführer Hermann Müller-John. In 1934 the orchestra was expanded to 72 men, selected on musical, health and racial qualifications. In the end the korps had a Sollstärke of 108 Musiker, but actual strength was 96 men. Musical education took place at the Staatl. Hochschule für Musik and in several Konservatorien, military training (parade training) took place together with I./LAH under command of Truppführern Plöw and Schmidl. Info about several concerts is given, if you're interested.

Müller-John's official title was Leibstandarten-Obermusikmeister, called Obumei by his men. He was 1.Musik-Inspizient der SS-VT and Mitglied des Reichs-Kultur-Senats. He made some radical changes to the orchestra, by adding Saxophones and other "Bigband" influences. He was respected by people like Prof. Erich Schumann and Erich Gutzeit (both composers) and Heeres-Musik-Inspizient Prof. Hermann Schmidt.

In 1945 he committed suicide in Austria, together with his wife and daughter. According to Lehmann this was his way to find peace with his involvement in the killing of 50 Polish civilians in 1939 (of whom several were Jewish).

According to Hstuf. Keilhaus and Hstuf. Ewert, the Musikkorps was shot at from a group of houses when their bus halted on a square. Several men were killed or wounded. Müller-John ordered the men of the Musikkorps and the medical column to search the houses. Weapons were found and the captured men were shot. v.Reichenau and von Rundstedt ordered a conduct and a trial and Müller-John was found guilty by a military court. Dietrich complained to Hitler and the führer signed a pardon. Officially because "crimes committed out of anger caused by the way the Poles treated the Volksdeutschen should not be punished". But Müller-John considered himself guilty of a war crime. According to Weingartner he told Paul Hausser: Wo das Verbrechen beginnt, hört die Kameradschaft auf!"
Timo commented earlier that he found suicide a way to find peace with his past actions and war crimes. But does anyone have more details about the event, why did his wife and daughter also chose the suicide? Or were their motives similar to those of for example Goebbels family.
This is a good question, let me "second" it. Is there any reason to believe that "Müller-John" was involved in any criminal activity? Not all members of the SS committed such acts.

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mty
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Re: Musikkorps Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler in Poland

Post by mty » 03 Jul 2007 08:36

For Behemoth: please see the following topic regarding Müller-John and his activities in Poland, 1939: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=93570

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behemoth
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Re: Musikkorps Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler in Poland

Post by behemoth » 03 Jul 2007 18:52

Excellent, thanks.

Dave

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Marcus
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Re: LAH Musikkorps murder

Post by Marcus » 30 Nov 2008 13:41

Does anyone have any additional details on this?

/Marcus

Rob - wssob2
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Re: LAH Musikkorps murder

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 30 Nov 2008 15:51

Hi Marcus - here's some additional information. Note that this is a additional incident of LAH troops killing Jewish civilians in addition to the killngs at Goworowo, Poland.

Sept 18, 1939:
Lt. Gen. Joachim Lemelsen, CO of the 29th Panzergrenadier Division, reports that SS-Obermusikmeister Müller-John ordered 50 Polish Jewish civilians shot at Blonie. Müller-John claims that he acted under orders from his superiors. Tenth Army Commander General Reichenau, citing that he had no knowledge of such an order, informs Army Group South that he has ordered Müller-John arrested and incarcerated.

Sept 23: RFSS Himmler and Erich Koch, Nazi Gauleiter of East Prussia, meet with von Küchler to request that he stop his request for an army courts martial for the SS troopers accused of the murder of Jews at Goworowo. Von Küchler refuses. Himmler then appeals to Hitler, who places SS troops under separate SS jurisdiction, effectively ending the proceedings against the accused. SS-Obermusikmeister Müller-John is also released and the investigation into his actions at Blonie ends.

source: Hitler Strikes Poland: Blitzkreig, Ideology & Atrocity - Alexander B. Rossino - University Press of Kansas - 2003

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Marcus
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Re: LAH Musikkorps murder

Post by Marcus » 30 Nov 2008 16:09

Many thanks Rob, very good info.

/Marcus

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Re: LAH Musikkorps murder

Post by mellenthin » 30 Nov 2008 16:47

Lehmann says in part two of his history of the leibstandarte that he learned from the incident in weingartners book and he has no problem distancing himself from the incident and agrees with hausser's phrase 'where crime begins comeradeship ends'.
Actually,he is a little bit too harsh if we have to believe that weapons were effictively found in the houses searched.
Obviously,the persons found should have been arrested but in the heat of the moment one can easily imagine that revenge was on the mind of the soldiers.Such incidents happen more in fights against armed civilians.
That müller john killed himself because of this is probably just a supposition because many killed themselves at the end of the war.

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Re: LAH Musikkorps murder

Post by michael mills » 01 Dec 2008 06:19

According to Hstuf. Keilhaus and Hstuf. Ewert, the Musikkorps was shot at
from a group of houses when their bus halted on a square. Several men were
killed or wounded. Müller-John ordered the men of the Musikkorps and the
medical column to search the houses. Weapons were found and the captured men
were shot
This sounds eerily similar to the Polish version of what happened at Bydgoszcz on 3-4 September 1939, but with the roles reversed.

According to that Polish account, Polish troops were shot at from the houses of ethnic Germans in Bydgoszcz, and several Poles were killed and wounded; the soldiers searched the houses, found weapons, and shot some of the captured ethnic Germans.

Again according to the official Polish account of what happened at Bydgoszcz, the shootings of the captured ethnic Germans was not criminal since those persons allegedly had fired at Polish troops. There is certainly no acceptance that Polish troops who shot ethnic Germans should have been put on trial for an alleged crime.

So what actually happened Blonie? Were German bandsmen really fired at from Polish houses? Was this just a case of an extremely unappreciative audience doing more than throw tomatoes at the band?

Perhaps the events at Blonie and at Bydgoszcz had a similar origin, namely nervous troops panicking and thinking they were under attack, and going on a rampage against innocent civilians linked to the other side.

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Re: LAH Musikkorps murder

Post by PF » 02 Dec 2008 16:38

Any photograph of Müller-John'? SS?NSDAP Number?

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Re: LAH Musikkorps murder

Post by David Thompson » 02 Dec 2008 16:48

The 1 July 1944 Waffen-SS Dienstaltersliste gives Hermann Mueller-John's rank as SS-Sturmbannfuehrer (date of rank = 30.1.1943), DOB 4.8.1894, SS-Nr.: 207148; serving in the 1st SS Panzer Division.

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