BUCHENWALD

[Ernst-H]

I am looking for pictures from the KZ lager Buchenwald.

The reason is my grandfather was in buchenwald as a prisoner till the end of the war. As he has kept nothing from the war I am trying to find some info and pictures.

I already have visited the buchenwald memorial website.

does anybody have pictures?

thanks
Ernst
http://www.germanpolice.org

[Hans]

Check out these:

http://www.jewishgen.org/ForgottenCamps ... nwald1.gif

http://www.blecking-kokenbrink.de/photos/seine.jpg

http://www.vergessene-opfer.ch/medien/d ... ald_lo.jpg

http://home.earthlink.net/~iversonom/ww ... 10x450.JPG

These photographs were taken after the liberation of Buchenwald.

The Buchenwald prisoner Georges Angeli worked in Buchenwald as photographer for the SS, and on sundays he had the opportunity to take secret photos in the concentration camp:



The next photo taken by Angeli shows the crematorium of Buchenwald on the left side and prisoners sunbathing in the meadow on the other side. The sunbathing prisoners have been removed by Angeli because he thought this scene was too macaber to show it.

[Scott Smith]

The sunbathing prisoners have been removed by Angeli because he thought this scene was too macaber to show it.

Hmmm, so he was willing to tamper with a historical document because it didn't fit his propagandistic vision.

[Hans]

The sunbathing prisoners have been removed by Angeli because he thought this scene was too macaber to show it.

Hmmm, so he was willing to tamper with a historical document because it didn't fit his propagandistic vision.

No.

Guess from who we know that the photo does (or did) show sunbathing prisoners at all?

[Scott Smith]

Then who altered the photos? Enlighten me.

[Roberto]

Then who altered the photos? Enlighten me.

Hans' explanation was clear enough.

Angeli obviously removed certain features from the photograph that disturbed his sensibility.

But, and this makes any accusation of "tampering" moot, he made clear that and why he had done so, if I understood Hans correctly.

[Scott Smith]

Then who altered the photos? Enlighten me.

Hans' explanation was clear enough.

Angeli obviously removed certain features from the photograph that disturbed his sensibility.

But, and this makes any accusation of "tampering" moot, he made clear that and why he had done so, if I understood Hans correctly.

That still doesn't excuse him for tampering with a document to satisfy his propagandistic whims. If it was a body-stinkpile photograph then I'm sure that his sensibilities would not be offended and indeed he would want to "Bear Witness."

[Hans]

That still doesn't excuse him for tampering with a document to satisfy his propagandistic whims.

And he doesn't need any excusation for what he did with his own photos. Rather you should be grateful that he has taken these pictures on a sunday in Buchenwald, secretely and at a high risk, and that he made them available for the public without keeping what they show secret. Remember that you wouldn't even know that there are any sunbathing prisoners on the photo, if he was really interested in "his propagandistic vision".

[Scott Smith]

That still doesn't excuse him for tampering with a document to satisfy his propagandistic whims.

And he doesn't need any excusation for what he did with his own photos. Rather you should be grateful that he has taken these pictures on a sunday in Buchenwald, secretely and at a high risk, and that he made them available for the public without keeping what they show secret. Remember that you wouldn't even know that there are any sunbathing prisoners on the photo, if he was really interested in "his propagandistic vision".

Well, yes, he could have thrown them away; they were his pictures. My point is that he is not being objective because his photos did not show the proper "propagandistic vision," and that is my point. I'm sure it would have been more *convenient* for him to show some atrocity instead of sunbathers in his Buchenwald photo-opportunity. Don't you agree?

[Hans]

My point is that he is not being objective

Which nobody can expect from a prisoner of a Nazi concentration camp.

his photos did not show the proper "propagandistic vision,"

Yes, his photos were - and still are - very disturbing for the people because they do not fit into the shocking images they have of concentration camps. But they do not show the whole reality of Buchenwald either of course. It's sunday morning, one of the few moments in the forced/slave labour system where the prisoners could relax and dream of better times.

[Scott Smith]

It's sunday morning, one of the few moments in the forced/slave labour system where the prisoners could relax and dream of better times.

So why is this so disturbing? It is merely a snapshot of camp life. It's not consistent with a Genocide-thesis, though, and a picture is worth a thousand words.

[Roberto]

It's sunday morning, one of the few moments in the forced/slave labour system where the prisoners could relax and dream of better times.

So why is this so disturbing? It is merely a snapshot of camp life. It's not consistent with a Genocide-thesis, though, and a picture is worth a thousand words.

Well, I can imagine few things better illustrating the horror of a concentration camp and the banality of that horror than the more fortunate among the inmates sunbathing next to the place where the less fortunate are being cremated.

The neighborhood of utter misery and death on the one hand and feeble attempts to grasp the joy of life on the other only makes the former seem even more appalling.

It may however also arouse, in the spectator not familiar with the realities of camp life, the impression that those sunbathing next to the crematorium were behaving in a callous manner.

So one of Angeli's intention may well have been that of avoiding this unwarranted, but unavoidable impression.

[Scott Smith]

It may however also arouse, in the spectator not familiar with the realities of camp life, the impression that those sunbathing next to the crematorium were behaving in a callous manner.

So what? People often picnic at the cemetery. Is this callous? Give me a break! There is nothing scary about crematoria, in spite of it violating Christian taboos about the resurrection. Only gaschambers are scary. Hence we often confuse the two and especially with the now discarded Newspeak term gas-ovens. That was back when there were gaschambers at Buchenwald, you know. Of course, they don't exist anymore; they never existed. And without them the photo of prisoners sunbathing in front of just another camp building is merely charming. This reveals the mentality of the photographer, IMHO. He is not trying to tell a story in pictures; he is intent on propagating a story. And with his snippety-scissors and whitewash he can tell it the way he wants it--the way we are supposed to see it.

[Charles Bunch]

It's sunday morning, one of the few moments in the forced/slave labour system where the prisoners could relax and dream of better times.

So why is this so disturbing? It is merely a snapshot of camp life. It's not consistent with a Genocide-thesis, though, and a picture is worth a thousand words.

If by genocide thesis you mean Holocaust history then you should know that Buchenwald was not a death camp for the extermination of Jews, the majority of its inmates were not Jews, and the majority of deaths in the camp were not even necessarily Jews. So showing a photo of inmates sun bathing at Buchenwald is not inconsistent with the proven genocide attempted by Nazi Germany.

Of course you expect to be excused for uttering whatever propagandistic nonsense enters your head even when based on a lack of knowledge of the subject under discussion.

[Roberto]

It may however also arouse, in the spectator not familiar with the realities of camp life, the impression that those sunbathing next to the crematorium were behaving in a callous manner.

So what? People often picnic at the cemetery. Is this callous?

No, but the spectator unfamiliar with the circumstances might consider sunbathing near the place where the bodies of your fellow inmates are being "processed" to be callous.

What makes Smith think that everyone thinks and feels like himself?

This reveals the mentality of the photographer, IMHO.

It sure does.

And the photographer seems to have been quite frank about it.

He is not trying to tell a story in pictures; he is intent on propagating a story. And with his snippety-scissors and whitewash he can tell it the way he wants it--the way we are supposed to see it.

I don't see what essential information the photographer's "snippety-scissors and whitewash" removed from the "story", especially as the photographer himself seems to have clearly stated what he had taken out and why.