Bismark wasn't sunk

[Bill Medland]

Sending the Bismarck out as a raider was the best that could be done with a lone battleship.
You have one battleship, you can send it against trade routes against unarmed cargo ships, or you can ignore this idea and send it single handed against the British Home Fleet and fight a mini Jutland!
I know what I would have done!
OK, a battleship is really a waste when it is used as a raider, but what else could be done in May 1941?
The Kriegsmarine had been almost totally wiped out during Norway 1940, it was clear they would never recover, it was just a case of building what was already started and use it as best they could, simple as that.
Bill.

[Sam H.]

No offense sir, just trying to understand, thanks for clariying.

[admfisher]

Firstly, Sam.H, absolutley nothing wrong with your post as I was only adding to it and filling a few things. Sorry if I offended you.

Secondly, Admfisher, I would be the first to say the Italian navy did nothing with the still decent fleet they had and the performance of them as a whole left a lot to be desired. That was a comment to an earlier comment from someone in that Germanies navy took the heat off the Italians when you could image what if Italy didnt actual bother in joining in the first place. My point wasnt to tell the world of the "great Italian naval superpower" at any time now was it?
I can give the Regina Marina one thing they kept the RN busy for some time. But in reality there were times that a sortie by the main fleet would of been some help in getting convoys through.

Hardline stuff? your the one trying that firstly?
My argument originally was that as a whole do you believe the surface fleet of the German navy could actually achieve anything in naval engagements only with the fleet they possessed, being so limited in the first place? My answer is no. Did they really need the amount of ships chasing it when they could have been used elsewhere? No.
Do you agree with the way the rest of the fleet was hunted and taken out one by one while basically on missions of raiding only?

The Tripitz was taken out while at anchor.

The Blutcher lost in Norway, Lützow entered Soviet fleet after the war, the Admiral Scheer capsized after several bomb hits from the RAF. The cruiser Admiral Hipper is renamed the Tallin by the Soviets after the salvaged it, PE was used in the Atom bomb tests, shall we carry on. There were the major units such as Admiral Graf Spee, Bismarck and Scharnhorst lost at sea in a raiding capacity. This does not count the light ships.

Did they in anyway confront the British naval forces head on with a planned attack during the war and achieve anything?

The Bismarck was to fight any escort of a convoy while the PE went after the cargo ships. Of coarse this did not make for anything, but it is an example of the oreders to fight.

And do you consider a battleship used exclusivly as a raider as being an hourable end to it?
To clear things up, those were my points, and this also in that they should have waited to form a proper battle group more than anything else before considering anything else and maybe they may have been more successful..

While hind sight is amazing. Triptiz had been working up for nine months so she was better prepared than the POW. But Raeder was up to something with this operation. There is speculation that with the conquests of the army and air force he needed his capital ships to show there worth before Hitler gave up on them altogther. Hitler had allready slowed the building of future ships so possibly Raeder pulled this mission off in hopes of success.

I am in full agreement that the mission should of been put off. It was fool hardy to think that the two ships would live long, maybe this is part of the reason for Raeder not being present when Hitler visited the ship.
Who knows.

The Discovery dive has upset some but then digging in history will do that, I thought it was amazing and I stand by it.

Grant
8)

[Bill Medland]

What has this Discovery Dive done for history?

The Kriegsmarine survivors have said since the sinking of the Bismarck that they scuttled her. In real terms they shortened the Bismarcks life by a few hours. And a scuttled ship is by no means a victory, so what then?

The real "victory" is

A group of very old Kriegsmarine veterans, who history has said told lies about the scuttle of their ship, have been vindicated, they were telling the truth. A few old men can say 60 years later, "I told you so".
That is the victory here, there pride is intact, and that is not a bad thing.

regards,Bill.

[admfisher]

What has this Discovery Dive done for history?

The Kriegsmarine survivors have said since the sinking of the Bismarck that they scuttled her. In real terms they shortened the Bismarcks life by a few hours. And a scuttled ship is by no means a victory, so what then?

The real "victory" is

A group of very old Kriegsmarine veterans, who history has said told lies about the scuttle of their ship, have been vindicated, they were telling the truth. A few old men can say 60 years later, "I told you so".
That is the victory here, there pride is intact, and that is not a bad thing.

regards,Bill.

Well put Bill.

I was also happy to hear the mystery being solved. I imagine there will be a DVD of it with more footage after the European realease. This I hope and look forward to.
8)

[Napoli]

Admfisher, well written on your earlier comments
As I tried to say, the German fleet as a "whole" under achieved but by that originaly, I meant mostly to the size of the fleet, not to the quality of it. Has been an interesting aurgument though

[Andy]

Jutland was a British victory. The Germans were the ones that had to retreat. It was a brilliant retreat but still a retreat. If they had stayed than their navy would have been crushed. The British lost more ships but battles are not baseball games.

[admfisher]

Jutland was a British victory. The Germans were the ones that had to retreat. It was a brilliant retreat but still a retreat. If they had stayed than their navy would have been crushed. The British lost more ships but battles are not baseball games.

Ok Jutland was a RN victory but it showed the RN the faults in there ships. They were shocked at the damage to Warspite and Malya, the three BC's and the failure of the shells.
If the German Fleet had wanted a showdown with the RN it would of been better in the early part of the war before the new 15 in ships started to arrive. At Jutland the QE's achieved more hits than the entire RN battleline.

But as one put it " The prisoner has assualted his jailer but he is still in Jail".

[DarExc]

I talked to one of my friends from Germany about this on the phone and it was new news to him (he was quite happy though). Was this reported much in Germany when James Cameron proved the ship was scuttled or did it just get a small paragraph at the back of a crappy newspaper? I ask because Im always interested in Germany's censorship of its past.

[admfisher]

No this is widley know now. It will be broadcast in Europe in the new year. So there will be little if any cencorship. They have to reomove the footage of Adolf walking on the stern over the swastika.

The biggest problem I have come across is people who do not believe the findigings. My friend was on the dive and he viewed all the footage as with the others and the definatly agree with Cameron.
Besides what good would it do Cameron to state she was scuttled unless he believed it.

They did search the entire hull and inspected as many openings as possible so when the DVD comes out we will see more.

One other thing is that when history is changed rapidly people are slow to catch on.

But this dive was a fact finding expedition not a thrill ride or a movie only, Cameron had a job and he did it.
8)

The site of my friends is the History Bismarck and Tripitiz at:
http://www.bismarck-class.dk/index.html

His dive section is here:
http://www.bismarck-class.dk/bismarck/e ... ction.html

John has done some wonderful work at this site and it was the site that attracted Cameron to him, in the end actually hiring him.

Grant

[Andy H]

Hi Grant

I posted this question earlier but had no reply and I was wondering if you had an opinion on this-that the Devonshire when she fired her torpedo's at the Bismarck, the list in the ship caused the hull to rise higher out of the water, thus when the torpedo's struck it was not at the main ring armour which as several poeple have stated was impervious to the torpedo's but the thinner armour below?

Andy from the Shire

[admfisher]

This makes excellant sense. It was the same as the Rodney not be able to constantly hit the main armor belt. With the ships rock and pitching it is easy to see a torpedo hitting below the main belt. But this does not mean that it defeats the torpedo protection. As the in the show most of the torpedo protection held up well.

One thing the cruiser you are thinking of is the Dorsetshire.

admfisher

[Madsen]

Hi everyone.

I've been sitting here reading about Bismarck and its final battle.
It was as i see it a great victory for GB and RN. But as far as i remember HMS Rodney send out a message that they couldn't sink her with gunfire alone. and Rodney had 6 30cm guns in it's main battery(don't kill me if im wrong ) So the idea of that the crew open it's valves or sunk their own ship by some charges is not that far away. If i had ships like rodney and couldn't sink Bismack i wouldt give mutch too get a look of the construction of it. and the germans knew they had a great ship. So when they were set out of combat (and slowly sinking?) then i would think :" They got us now but they will not get a chance to study the ship and perhaps copy it. we open the valves and sink our self"..

By the way. there is another story of a battle. this time with RN alone against a KM fleet.
Im thinking of the little known battle 8. April 1940 when HMS engaged Admiral Hipper with it's escort. http://homepages.tesco.net/~s.bell/index.html

It's the only time in British history that Victoria Cross was recomended for by an enemy.

May you all have a peaceful and a happy new year
and forgive me my bad spelling

[Andy H]

Hi Grant

Thanks for the correction on the cruiser . I understand that this may not have defeated the armour protection but just another angle to look at.

Hi LILLEBROR

Royal Marine Sgt Durrant also recieved his VC on the reccomendation of a German officer who witnessed his actions at the raid on St Nazaire.

Andy from the Shire

[admfisher]

Hi everyone.

I've been sitting here reading about Bismarck and its final battle.
It was as i see it a great victory for GB and RN. But as far as i remember HMS Rodney send out a message that they couldn't sink her with gunfire alone. and Rodney had 6 30cm guns in it's main battery(don't kill me if im wrong ) So the idea of that the crew open it's valves or sunk their own ship by some charges is not that far away. If i had ships like rodney and couldn't sink Bismack i wouldt give mutch too get a look of the construction of it. and the germans knew they had a great ship. So when they were set out of combat (and slowly sinking?) then i would think :" They got us now but they will not get a chance to study the ship and perhaps copy it. we open the valves and sink our self"..

By the way. there is another story of a battle. this time with RN alone against a KM fleet.
Im thinking of the little known battle 8. April 1940 when HMS engaged Admiral Hipper with it's escort. http://homepages.tesco.net/~s.bell/index.html

It's the only time in British history that Victoria Cross was recomended for by an enemy.

May you all have a peaceful and a happy new year
and forgive me my bad spelling

The Rodney had 9 x 16 in main guns with 12, 6 in secoundary guns.

The story of the Glowworm was a dd that was hit heavily then it charged the Adm Hipper causing quite some damage to her bow. Brave but at what cost of life to the Glowworm's crew?