Sinking of the "Steuben"
Sinking of the "Steuben"
Has anyone any details concerning the sink of the "Steuben, a Lloyd's steamer.
The ship was sunk on Feb 10/11th 1945 in the Baltic, carrying some 2500 wounded and over a 1,000 refugees, only some 600 were saved.
From the Shire
The ship was sunk on Feb 10/11th 1945 in the Baltic, carrying some 2500 wounded and over a 1,000 refugees, only some 600 were saved.
From the Shire
The sinking of the "General Steuben" was one of a trio of German evacuation ships sunk by Soviet submarines in 1945. The three top the list of the worst maritime tragedies in history.
On 30 January 1945, the Soviet submarine "S 13" commanded by Captain Third Rank Alexander Marinesko sank the German liner "Wilhelm Gustloff" west of the Gulf of Danzig. Conflicting sources state that of the 6,050 to 10,582 wounded soldiers and refugees aboard the Gustloff, only 1,239 were rescued.
On 10 February 1945, Marinesko also sank the hospital ship "General Steuben" with two torpedoes in the same general vicinity. The ship was carrying as many as 5,000 wounded soldiers and refugees of which 3,500 lost their lives.
On 16 April 1945, the Soviet submarine "L 3" commanded by Captain Third Rank Vladimir K. Konovalov sank the German liner "Goya" with two torpedoes. Of the estimated 7,000 wounded soldiers and refugees aboard, only 183 survived.
In his memoirs, "Ten Years and Twenty Days,” Großadmiral Karl Dönitz commented on these losses in the overall picture of the German sea evacuation from the approaching Soviet forces:
“The losses that occurred in the transports that were sunk were truly appalling—4,000 were lost with the “Wilhelm Gustloff,” 7,000 with the “Goya” and 3,000 with the hospital ship “General Steuben.” Painful though these losses were, they represented only 1 percent of the total brought out by sea; 99 percent succeeded in arriving safely at ports on the western Baltic. On the other hand, the percentage of refugees lost on the overland route was very much higher.”
NOTE: The numbers who lost their lives in these sinkings vary depending on the source; it seems no one will really ever know exactly how many people were aboard.
SOURCES: Christopher Dobson, John Miller & Ronald Payne, "The Cruelest Night," Little, Brown and Company, 1979; Dönitz memoirs; various internet resources.
On 30 January 1945, the Soviet submarine "S 13" commanded by Captain Third Rank Alexander Marinesko sank the German liner "Wilhelm Gustloff" west of the Gulf of Danzig. Conflicting sources state that of the 6,050 to 10,582 wounded soldiers and refugees aboard the Gustloff, only 1,239 were rescued.
On 10 February 1945, Marinesko also sank the hospital ship "General Steuben" with two torpedoes in the same general vicinity. The ship was carrying as many as 5,000 wounded soldiers and refugees of which 3,500 lost their lives.
On 16 April 1945, the Soviet submarine "L 3" commanded by Captain Third Rank Vladimir K. Konovalov sank the German liner "Goya" with two torpedoes. Of the estimated 7,000 wounded soldiers and refugees aboard, only 183 survived.
In his memoirs, "Ten Years and Twenty Days,” Großadmiral Karl Dönitz commented on these losses in the overall picture of the German sea evacuation from the approaching Soviet forces:
“The losses that occurred in the transports that were sunk were truly appalling—4,000 were lost with the “Wilhelm Gustloff,” 7,000 with the “Goya” and 3,000 with the hospital ship “General Steuben.” Painful though these losses were, they represented only 1 percent of the total brought out by sea; 99 percent succeeded in arriving safely at ports on the western Baltic. On the other hand, the percentage of refugees lost on the overland route was very much higher.”
NOTE: The numbers who lost their lives in these sinkings vary depending on the source; it seems no one will really ever know exactly how many people were aboard.
SOURCES: Christopher Dobson, John Miller & Ronald Payne, "The Cruelest Night," Little, Brown and Company, 1979; Dönitz memoirs; various internet resources.
Do the three sinkings of unarmed hospital ships count as warcrimes?
Not that it would matter, but some people around seem to grow mad everytime someone treats in a "cold" manner the Poles and Soviets who died during partisan hunts. Or the German people on the vessels "got what they deserved for voting the Nazis into power", to quote one of our members?
~Ovidius
Not that it would matter, but some people around seem to grow mad everytime someone treats in a "cold" manner the Poles and Soviets who died during partisan hunts. Or the German people on the vessels "got what they deserved for voting the Nazis into power", to quote one of our members?
~Ovidius
stuff
I beleive it still is in print - You may also want to try :
Our threatened values by Victor Gollancz . Its probably out of print - but he was British, so some libraries in your area may have it.
Ovidius: how many times do I have to say it:
The Allies never committed any warcrimes - just ask them!
Our threatened values by Victor Gollancz . Its probably out of print - but he was British, so some libraries in your area may have it.
Ovidius: how many times do I have to say it:
The Allies never committed any warcrimes - just ask them!
Thanks MJ I'll give that a go.
Is the sinking of a hospital ship a warcrime, well provided they were marked clearly as such and the attack wasn't a "mistake" then IMO-Yes it's a warcrime.
In regards to partisan's I've always found it hard do differentiate between Partisan's and a terrorist's., because fundamentaly they have the same ideals and goals.
Andy from the Shire
Is the sinking of a hospital ship a warcrime, well provided they were marked clearly as such and the attack wasn't a "mistake" then IMO-Yes it's a warcrime.
In regards to partisan's I've always found it hard do differentiate between Partisan's and a terrorist's., because fundamentaly they have the same ideals and goals.
Andy from the Shire
I doubt a Red Cross flag was going to stop the RussiansCheshire Yeomanry wrote:Is the sinking of a hospital ship a warcrime, well provided they were marked clearly as such and the attack wasn't a "mistake" then IMO-Yes it's a warcrime.
You should have told this to Medorjurgen. He replied, about Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya: "A heroine, not a terrorist".In regards to partisan's I've always found it hard do differentiate between Partisan's and a terrorist's., because fundamentaly they have the same ideals and goals.
~Ovidius
If Canada is occupied by the US and I take up the fight against the states, then the US being the winner of my land would consider me a terrorist.
Simple.
It all comes down to what side of the line you fall on.
In Isreal are the PLO terrorists or partisans?
This would be a matter of opinion to me, but to a member of the IDF then a terrorist. To the the PLO, then a hero.
If we question sinking of these ships then we must be ready to answer the above question. The same issues are involved.
Grant
Simple.
It all comes down to what side of the line you fall on.
In Isreal are the PLO terrorists or partisans?
This would be a matter of opinion to me, but to a member of the IDF then a terrorist. To the the PLO, then a hero.
If we question sinking of these ships then we must be ready to answer the above question. The same issues are involved.
Grant
- Indra Ross
- Member
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Wilhelm Gustloff
My friend (U-Boat veteran) just lent me two books that might be of interest, I am in the process of reading them, he made a point of reminding me to return them because they are difficult to find.
I am having him over for supper on Saturday, I'm sure he has some very interesting stories. I want to record them and share them with everyone later.
'The Damned Don't Drown' (The sinking of the Wilhelm Gustoff) by A.V. Sellwood.
'Other Losses' by James Bacque.
Thanks
I am having him over for supper on Saturday, I'm sure he has some very interesting stories. I want to record them and share them with everyone later.
'The Damned Don't Drown' (The sinking of the Wilhelm Gustoff) by A.V. Sellwood.
'Other Losses' by James Bacque.
Thanks