if MFPs not developed what would have been used?

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thaddeus_c
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if MFPs not developed what would have been used?

#1

Post by thaddeus_c » 25 Jul 2015, 01:18

if MFPs not developed what would have been used?

http://german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ship ... index.html

for very little effort the KM had a useful and versatile craft, numbering over 700.

only craft I've seen discussed was larger Kriegstransporter http://rommelsriposte.com/2014/12/20/th ... programme/

doubting Axis would be able to build anything near 700 of those? and its larger capacity would work both ways (better if it reaches destination or worse if sunk?)

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Urmel
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Re: if MFPs not developed what would have been used?

#2

Post by Urmel » 02 Sep 2016, 07:24

The two are really not comparable vessels. The KT were proper ships, put together on proper yards, and for the purpose of providing a standardised and flexible design that could operate also into smaller ports with insufficient facilities (e.g. weak or no cranes). This was a particular concern in the Med. The size difference was substantial. There was no way the Axis could have built 700 KT. But then again, in terms of load capacity 700 MFP equal 140 KT, and that was certainly an achievable number. But they served different purposes, so you can't think of one replacing the other.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42


bertamingo
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Re: if MFPs not developed what would have been used?

#3

Post by bertamingo » 03 Sep 2016, 07:38

The Germans had a diverse range of landing craft. Besides MFPs, there were the pioneer landing boats of the German army, infantry landing boats of the Luftwaffe, the Siebel and Hebert ferries, the MNL and MALs, the type 39 and 42 assault boats etc.. Furthermore, the Germans were good at improvised landing craft based on civilian barges, such as the so-called landing barges made for OP Sealion, as well as commandeered fishing boats and yachts.

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Urmel
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Re: if MFPs not developed what would have been used?

#4

Post by Urmel » 03 Sep 2016, 07:48

I think thaddeus' point is not about landing craft but about moving supplies from A to B. The KT were not landing craft, and the MFP weren't used as landing craft much, but rather as supply vessels.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

bertamingo
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Re: if MFPs not developed what would have been used?

#5

Post by bertamingo » 04 Sep 2016, 04:11

The same can be said of most other German landing craft, though their capacities were more limited than MFPs. Improvised civilian barges, mooring ships, kumos, fishing boats etc. would have taken up the bulk of coastal transport if all of these landing craft had been missing.

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Urmel
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Re: if MFPs not developed what would have been used?

#6

Post by Urmel » 04 Sep 2016, 08:57

I think you're missing the point of the discussion and rather underestimate the capabilities of the MFPs.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

pugsville
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Re: if MFPs not developed what would have been used?

#7

Post by pugsville » 05 Sep 2016, 04:12

bertamingo wrote:. Furthermore, the Germans were good at improvised landing craft based on civilian barges, such as the so-called landing barges made for OP Sealion, as well as commandeered fishing boats and yachts.
good. the canal barges proposed for use during sealion. good? really in what way could they have been described as any way good for that purpose?

barely seaworthy. slow. unprotected. death traps.

bertamingo
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Re: if MFPs not developed what would have been used?

#8

Post by bertamingo » 05 Sep 2016, 05:34

pugsville wrote:
bertamingo wrote:. Furthermore, the Germans were good at improvised landing craft based on civilian barges, such as the so-called landing barges made for OP Sealion, as well as commandeered fishing boats and yachts.
good. the canal barges proposed for use during sealion. good? really in what way could they have been described as any way good for that purpose?

barely seaworthy. slow. unprotected. death traps.
Maybe my point is not stated clear enough. I was NOT saying the barges were good, what I mean is that the Germans were good at improvising with landing craft. That means, they were capable of organizing amphibious forces with whatever ships available. Not only with the landing barges, but also with the Greek caiques used in the capture of Crete.

bertamingo
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Re: if MFPs not developed what would have been used?

#9

Post by bertamingo » 05 Sep 2016, 05:40

Urmel wrote:I think you're missing the point of the discussion and rather underestimate the capabilities of the MFPs.
Neither. I noticed that KTs were mentioned alongside the MFPs, so it's also related to transport. However, just like MFPs, the other landing craft of KM/Heer/Luftwaffe, from purpose built to improvised, were widely used as transports, especially in the Med. and the black sea. That's why I said, even with the MFPs missing, there were still other landing craft and misc. ships (kumos etc.) around to do the tasks, albeit at lower efficiency.

Furthermore, as I have CLEARLY mentioned, other landing craft were more limited in capacity than MFPs. Thus it's weird to see u claim that I underestimate MFPs. Where did I do that?

thaddeus_c
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Re: if MFPs not developed what would have been used?

#10

Post by thaddeus_c » 07 Sep 2016, 04:30

Urmel wrote:I think thaddeus' point is not about landing craft but about moving supplies from A to B. The KT were not landing craft, and the MFP weren't used as landing craft much, but rather as supply vessels.
yes, I was probably unclear. was struck by the numbers built of vessel and especially use as AFP, gunboat? not sure any other term?
and in other variants transporting tank.

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