German Subchaser Commanders Who Excelled In Sinking Enemy Subs

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Kriegsmarine except those dealing with the U-Boat forces.
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Sheldrake
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Re: German Subchaser Commanders Who Excelled In Sinking Enemy Subs

#16

Post by Sheldrake » 06 Feb 2016, 10:27

chaps,

When trying to interpret historic sources, the memories of veterans are no less fallible than the general public. There is little credibility given to witness statements in court about events that happened more than 18 months before the date of the statement. Memory is an active faculty, with the brain piecing together an interpretation. It can be difficult to disentangle an image recalled from one suggested or created subsequently. Veterans face the added social pressure of justifying awards and other consequences of interpretation made during a war.

Of course there was over claiming. Of course veterans and their descendants will press their interpretation of events. Lets move on without acrimony.

Knouterer
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Re: German Subchaser Commanders Who Excelled In Sinking Enemy Subs

#17

Post by Knouterer » 06 Feb 2016, 11:04

INXS wrote: My uncle was a Tiger tank commander named SS-Haupsturmführer Heinz Kling. He completed the war having destroyed 67 Russian tanks and many other vehicles. He was awarded Knight's Cross and German Cross in Gold. If you accused him of faking information, he would either laugh at your face or belt you.
And if you had accused Master Sergeant Anabuki of making false claims he would have drawn his sword and chopped your head off with a single stroke :D

However, that wouldn't count as evidence either. As Sheldrake suggests, we really should try to distinguish between stories, claims, hearsay, propaganda, recollections recorded 50 years after the fact etc. etc. on the one hand, and hard established facts (by normal standards of evidence) on the other.

Picture from Christopher Shores, Air War for Burma, p. 102.
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INXS
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Re: German Subchaser Commanders Who Excelled In Sinking Enemy Subs

#18

Post by INXS » 07 Feb 2016, 11:23

Pollmann's grandson was not testifying before a court. Neither should he feel compelled to satisfy your evidentiary requirements. He provided a testimonial based on a personal understanding of the man's character. On a psychological level I can appreciate why a person who has spent a lifetime of comfort would react in a visceral manner to denigrate the accomplishments of extraordinary men in extraordinary circumstances.

John T
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Re: German Subchaser Commanders Who Excelled In Sinking Enemy Subs

#19

Post by John T » 07 Feb 2016, 23:56

INXS wrote:Pollmann's grandson was not testifying before a court. Neither should he feel compelled to satisfy your evidentiary requirements. He provided a testimonial based on a personal understanding of the man's character.
Military history are based on facts and preferably uses multiple sources to recreate the situation from different actors perspective.

If a submarine are claimed to be sunk by Pollamnn's logbook and that same submarine returns to base unharmed according to the submarines logbook, then Pollmanns claim are false.

Thus Pollmann the elder were proved wrong.

INXS wrote: On a psychological level I can appreciate why a person who has spent a lifetime of comfort would react in a visceral manner to denigrate the accomplishments of extraordinary men in extraordinary circumstances.
Do you believe in übermensch?


/John

Edward L. Hsiao
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Re: German Subchaser Commanders Who Excelled In Sinking Enemy Subs

#20

Post by Edward L. Hsiao » 08 Feb 2016, 00:07

Gentlemen,

This has gone far enough! I really don't want anymore arguments and off the topics thoughts. All I want was to know if there were any Kriegsmarine surface subchaser commanders that you know besides Pollmann that seems to excelled in sinking enemy submarines especially the Baltic where there were plenty of Soviet submarines sunk. INXS, welcome to the forum. I have to agree of what you said good about your uncle and about Pollmann. I'm the one that started the thread!

Sincerely,

Edward L. Hsiao :)

igorr
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Re: German Subchaser Commanders Who Excelled In Sinking Enemy Subs

#21

Post by igorr » 08 Feb 2016, 05:05

Most soviet submarines (Baltic, Black sea, Arctic) was sunk by mines. Noone from german ship's commander (all clases) sunk more than one.

Knouterer
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Re: German Subchaser Commanders Who Excelled In Sinking Enemy Subs

#22

Post by Knouterer » 08 Feb 2016, 10:01

"The true spirit of conversation consists in building on another man's observation, not overturning it." Edward George Bulwer-Lytton

Knouterer
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Re: German Subchaser Commanders Who Excelled In Sinking Enemy Subs

#23

Post by Knouterer » 08 Feb 2016, 10:14

INXS wrote:Pollmann's grandson was not testifying before a court. Neither should he feel compelled to satisfy your evidentiary requirements. He provided a testimonial based on a personal understanding of the man's character. On a psychological level I can appreciate why a person who has spent a lifetime of comfort would react in a visceral manner to denigrate the accomplishments of extraordinary men in extraordinary circumstances.
I'm not much interested in bickering, there's far too much of that on AHF already. So I'll just limit myself to the observation that you're trying to shift the discussion away from the "solid number" referred to in your initial post to issues of "character" and the personal opinions of people without any first-hand knowledge of events, such as Pollmann's grandson.

Perhaps Pollmann was an extraordinary man in many ways, but I never met him - and neither did his grandson, since he died aged only 42 - so I have no opinion on that.

However, unless I misunderstood something, this thread is not about his qualities as a human being.

Let's stick to facts.
Last edited by Knouterer on 08 Feb 2016, 13:55, edited 3 times in total.
"The true spirit of conversation consists in building on another man's observation, not overturning it." Edward George Bulwer-Lytton

Knouterer
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Re: German Subchaser Commanders Who Excelled In Sinking Enemy Subs

#24

Post by Knouterer » 08 Feb 2016, 10:41

For easy reference, here's a list of all British subs lost in WWII, from all causes, in all theatres of war, by year:

http://www.naval-history.net/WW2aBritishLosses05SS.htm
"The true spirit of conversation consists in building on another man's observation, not overturning it." Edward George Bulwer-Lytton

Knouterer
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Re: German Subchaser Commanders Who Excelled In Sinking Enemy Subs

#25

Post by Knouterer » 08 Feb 2016, 10:51

A Belgian diver claimed last year to have discovered the wreck of HMS Usk, sunk in 1942 by an Italian aircraft off the Libyan coast. But again, no absolute certainty yet:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... coast.html
"The true spirit of conversation consists in building on another man's observation, not overturning it." Edward George Bulwer-Lytton

Knouterer
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Re: German Subchaser Commanders Who Excelled In Sinking Enemy Subs

#26

Post by Knouterer » 08 Feb 2016, 10:59

igorr wrote:Most soviet submarines (Baltic, Black sea, Arctic) was sunk by mines. Noone from german ship's commander (all clases) sunk more than one.
I wonder if any sub chaser (commander and/or ship) of any Navy in WWII can be reliably credited with more than two kills? Even the fictitious commander Ericson in The Cruel Sea only sank two during the whole war, IIRC, and lost his first ship to a torpedo attack.
"The true spirit of conversation consists in building on another man's observation, not overturning it." Edward George Bulwer-Lytton

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hucks216
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Re: German Subchaser Commanders Who Excelled In Sinking Enemy Subs

#27

Post by hucks216 » 08 Feb 2016, 12:06

I wonder if any sub chaser (commander and/or ship) of any Navy in WWII can be reliably credited with more than two kills? Even the fictitious commander Ericson in The Cruel Sea only sank two during the whole war, IIRC, and lost his first ship to a torpedo attack.
Captain Frederic 'Johnny' Walker RN might well fit that category, not just sinking U-Boats with his own ship but also as a commander of a very successful Escort Group.

Darius333
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Re: German Subchaser Commanders Who Excelled In Sinking Enemy Subs

#28

Post by Darius333 » 08 Feb 2016, 12:39

off topic but to your questions about "sub killers":
http://www.uboatarchive.net/England.htm

Regards

Darius

INXS
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Re: German Subchaser Commanders Who Excelled In Sinking Enemy Subs

#29

Post by INXS » 09 Feb 2016, 04:25

Dear Mr. Hsiao:

Many thanks for your kind comments. I would be delighted to share with you only, since you are a gentleman, if ever you are interested, the awards and documents for Rall as well as others. As you know, forgeries are a terrible problem. To avoid this, Rall provided personal letters on his personal stationary along with his notarized signature attesting to each award and document. Regarding this topic, I was fortunate to acquire some years ago a U-boat War Badge with Diamonds directly from the recipient.

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Polar bear
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Re: German Subchaser Commanders Who Excelled In Sinking Enemy Subs

#30

Post by Polar bear » 10 Feb 2016, 18:16

hi,
Knouterer wrote: I wonder if any sub chaser (commander and/or ship) of any Navy in WWII can be reliably credited with more than two kills?
yes, indeed :
USN : DE England https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_England_%28DE-635%29
RN : DD Hesperus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Hesperus_%28H57%29
RM : TB Circe http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=71591

greetings, Urs
Peace hath her victories no less renowned than War
(John Milton, the poet, in a letter to the Lord General Cromwell, May 1652)

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