Floating Torpedo Batteries of the Kriegsmarine

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Natter
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Re: Floating Torpedo Batteries of the Kriegsmarine

Post by Natter » 11 Jun 2019 18:03

Edward L. Hsiao wrote:I have to yet see a real picture of that interesting floating torpedo battery vessel.
Attached photos of the before-mentioned batteries in Trondheimsfiord (sources: See comment on each photo). The barges "NB1" and "NB2" were anchored up at Brettingen (northside of the fiord) and Selva (southside).
The barges couldn't handle the full weight of a vierling rohrsatz, so the right tube (no 4) on each were removed. These two single tubes were mounted on a smaller barge that was anchord up alongside the barge at Selva.

Later, the vierling rohrsätze were reassembled and mounted as rather simple batteries on shore: One at Hysneståa (Torpedobatterie Hasselvik) with no shed (appearently) and one at Hambåra under a wooden shed (Torpedobatterie Hambaara). The latter remained like this for the duration of the war (and in norwegian service post WW2), while the battery at Hysneståa were moved to a fully fortified SK-bunker at Sørviknes (later in norwegian service until 1994).
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Re: Floating Torpedo Batteries of the Kriegsmarine

Post by Natter » 11 Jun 2019 18:06

danebrog wrote:Torpedo attached to fishing trawler:
download/file.php?id=233110
That is not a "scwimmende batterie", but one of the two "Spinnebatterie" in "shiff" configuration in Helsingør, Denmark (as far as I know, a local adaption only found there - in addition to the original "wagen" and the adapted "molen" configurations).
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Re: Floating Torpedo Batteries of the Kriegsmarine

Post by Natter » 11 Jun 2019 18:12

hucks216 wrote:It looks like Marine-Artillerie-Abteilung 516 had two such floating batteries, Lillian & Dorff.
schwimmende bewegliche Torpedobatterie Lillian (2 x 50-cm)
schwimmende bewegliche Torpedobatterie Dorff (2 x 50-cm)
The correct names are "Lillan" and "Drot". The two vessels were designated "Torpedobatterie Narvik", and was located in Ofotfiord until the permanent batteries at Korshavn and Porsøy were finished - as mentioned in my previous post above.

There's some confusion in regards to number of tubes on these ships, as some sources indicate that they both had two 50cm zwilling-rohrsätze (they used the older G7v torpedo from the 1920's). Originally, all tubes were to be mounted at the shore batteries (supposedly done in one of the batteries), but as the floating concept was deemed successful, each vessel kept one rohrsatz, and the two shore batteries received one each (in 1944, these were replaced with more modern 53,34cm drillingrohrsätze and G7a(TI) torpedoes). Thus, the vessels could be used further on as floating batteries.

Some time after the service in Ofotfiord, they were assigned to harbour defence for Tirpitz in Altafiord/Kåfiord.
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Re: Floating Torpedo Batteries of the Kriegsmarine

Post by Natter » 11 Jun 2019 18:21

fredleander wrote:And during quite unfavourable conditions, too, except for the actual positioning of the battery. A retired naval officer, Andersen, living on the other side of the fjord took his boat over to the fortress the evening before to check if there was anything he could contribute with. He organized a crew for the torpedo battery and led its operation during the fight.
A bit simplified version of the story, but yes: Anderssen (having served as battery commander in the late 1920's) was retired and returned to service because the ordinary batterycommander was sick.
fredleander wrote:The torpedoes that sank the Blucher had been fired more than a hundred times during training exercises.
The battery was equipped with roughly 40-year old Whitehead Mod Vd torpedoes. Luckily, the warheads had been re-laborated from 100 kg guncotton to 150 kg TNT in 1939, so they were able to deliver a more potent punch...
fredleander wrote:There were similar batteries in the Bergen Approaches but they were never manned.
Only one battery: Kvarven torpedobattery. The main problem there was that crucial equipment (like the torpedo gyrocopes) were stored (presumeably for maintenance) at the naval base in Bergen. It has also been suggested that key personell with pro-german attitude actively hindered the preparation of the battery.
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Re: Floating Torpedo Batteries of the Kriegsmarine

Post by Natter » 11 Jun 2019 18:27

fredleander wrote:The Japanese had an interesting version of it with the IJN Kitakami - a so-called "torpedo-cruiser". It sported no less than ten quadruple torpedo tube launchers. It was eventually relegated to troop transport in 1942.
True, although not relevant to shore-/floating torpedobatteries. It actually ended it's life in 1945 as a platform for Kaiten suicide midget submarines.
fredleander wrote:P.S.: If you know where it is it the Oscarsborg torpedo battery can still be seen when you pass the fortress. There are guided tours around the fortress.
FYI: We also have another fully preserved torpedobattery as a museum in Norway: The former german "Torpedobatterie Hjelte" (Herdla torpedobattery, in Askøy outside Bergen). It was opened as a museum in 2012. The battery is preserved in it's latest rebuild from 2001 (it was in use by the norwegian navy from 1948 to 2007), but we also have a lot of the original german tools and equipment, including nine G7a(TI) and T1 mod 1 torpedoes.

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Re: Floating Torpedo Batteries of the Kriegsmarine

Post by Edward L. Hsiao » 12 Jun 2019 05:48

Were there any floating torpedo batteries in Danzig harbor or any harbors in the Prussian areas at all? How about at Memel?

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Re: Floating Torpedo Batteries of the Kriegsmarine

Post by Natter » 12 Jun 2019 07:59

Edward L. Hsiao wrote:Were there any floating torpedo batteries in Danzig harbor or any harbors in the Prussian areas at all? How about at Memel?
Not that I know of.

List of schwimmende torpedobatterien (ref Gröner):

As deployed by august 1943:
* Wachtboot 1: Raunefiord, Norway (during the construction of Torpedobatterie Raune)
* Wachtboot 2: Hjeltefiord, Norway (during the construction of Torpedobatterie Hjelte)
* Wachtboot 3 and Wachtboot 4: Altafiord, Norway
* Wachtboot 5: Talgsjøen, Norway (presumably during the construction of Torpedobatterie Nordlandet)
* Wachtboot 7 and Wachtboot 8: Trondheim, Norway

As deployed by july 1944:
* Lillan, Drot, Wachtboot 3, Wachtboot 4: Altafiord, Norway
* TP Dragoner: Kristiansand, Norway
* Wachtboot 5, Wachtboot 7, Wachtboot 8: Trondheim, Norway
* TP Balte, Burgunder, Markomanne: Molde, Norway
* TP Zick, TP Tarantel, Moskito, Libelle, S10, S11, S13, S15, S16, Wachtboot 1, Wachtboot 2: Bergen, Norway

As deployed by march 1944:
* Gezenia Catharina: Ijmuiden, Netherlands

Unknown deployment-dates/locations:
* C44 Pmot: Norway, unknown location*
* C190 PJmot: Norway, unknown location*
* C204 Pmot (Condor): Norway, unknown location*
* C318 Pmot: Norway, unknown location*
* D32 Pmot: Norway, unknown location*
* D130 Pmot (Wachtshiff, B49 Pmot): Norway, unknown location*

The last ones might be wrong info in Gröners book (some of these are listed with dutch origin, so perhaps a mix-up with some of the original dutch "kempenaare")?

The Wachtboote were converted dutch landingships "kempenaare" that was equipped with a drillingrohrsatz at a norwegian shipyard. The rest of the batteries comprised of older norwegian torpedoboats ("TP xx"), S-Boote ("S-xx") and converted fishing vessels.

In addition to the batteries listed, there were at least one in France (a barge anchored outside Brest) and two in the Netherlands (Hoek van Holland).

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Re: Floating Torpedo Batteries of the Kriegsmarine

Post by Edward L. Hsiao » 13 Jun 2019 02:08

To my disappointment I take it that the floating torpedo batteries in Norway had not see any actions at all for all of WWII?

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Re: Floating Torpedo Batteries of the Kriegsmarine

Post by Natter » 13 Jun 2019 08:38

Edward L. Hsiao wrote:To my disappointment
??
Edward L. Hsiao wrote:I take it that the floating torpedo batteries in Norway had not see any actions at all for all of WWII?
As far s I know, the only time a shore battery (floating or permanent) was in action, was the sinking of Blücher 9. april 1940 by Kaholmen torpedobattery.

There is a rumor that Torpedobatterie Vlissingen fired their torpedoes, but wether it was an actual attack against allied vessels, or just to get rid of the torpeoedoes before evacuating the premises I don't know.

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Re: Floating Torpedo Batteries of the Kriegsmarine

Post by hucks216 » 13 Jun 2019 14:11

Edward L. Hsiao wrote:
12 Jun 2019 05:48
Were there any floating torpedo batteries in Danzig harbor or any harbors in the Prussian areas at all? How about at Memel?

Edward L. Hsiao
The main Soviet surface fleet in the Baltic wasn't seen as much of a threat due to inaction (ships & crews becoming stale and poorly maintained) and being confined to Leningrad by minefields so chances are they didn't see a need to protect Danzig & Memel with such a battery, and late in the war there was also a German naval battle group operating in that area which would of provided further security against any major Soviet surface forces.

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Re: Floating Torpedo Batteries of the Kriegsmarine

Post by glenn239 » 20 Jun 2019 14:01

Question - were any improvised torpedo mounts, (barges, tugs, etc) intended or deployed for Sealion in 1940?

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Re: Floating Torpedo Batteries of the Kriegsmarine

Post by Edward L. Hsiao » 22 Jun 2019 09:54

Torpedo tubes on a small tugboat? I like to see a picture or a drawing of an armed tugboat mounted with torpedo tubes or maybe rocket launchers. The German naval special force ops (MEKs) would have like to operate cutters,motorized barges,tugboats,and other small craft mounted with torpedo tubes.
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Re: Floating Torpedo Batteries of the Kriegsmarine

Post by Natter » 22 Jun 2019 11:46

glenn239 wrote:Question - were any improvised torpedo mounts, (barges, tugs, etc) intended or deployed for Sealion in 1940?
A torpedobattery is by definition a stationary installation (on shore or mounted on an ancored floating device). I struggle to see how that would have a purpose in an offensive operation?
Edward L. Hsiao wrote:Torpedo tubes on a small tugboat? I like to see a picture or a drawing of an armed tugboat mounted with torpedo tubes or maybe rocket launchers.
As explained in another topic by you, that is fully feasible (depending on the size of the boat of course). It would in fact be the definition of a floating torpedobattery (or perhaps a Q-ship, depending on it's operation).
Edward L. Hsiao wrote:The German naval special force ops (MEKs) would have like to operate cutters,motorized barges,tugboats,and other small craft mounted with torpedo tubes.
Really? I must have misunderstood the capabilities and tasks of the MEK... 8O

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Re: Floating Torpedo Batteries of the Kriegsmarine

Post by glenn239 » 22 Jun 2019 15:01

Natter wrote:
22 Jun 2019 11:46
A torpedobattery is by definition a stationary installation (on shore or mounted on an ancored floating device). I struggle to see how that would have a purpose in an offensive operation?
A torpedo battery is whatever it is mounted on. The question was whether or not this type of weapon was mounted on small coastal vessels, or not. A typical torpedo weighed about 1.5 tons, maybe 20-25 feet long. So the question was, were there ad hoc torpedo mounts in Sealion? The follow up observation being that a tug boat with a 20mm cannon was probably less dangerous to a destroyer wishing to approach to within 2,000 yards than was a tug boat with a 20mm cannon and a pair of 53cm torpedoes.

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Re: Floating Torpedo Batteries of the Kriegsmarine

Post by Natter » 22 Jun 2019 15:56

glenn239 wrote:A torpedo battery is whatever it is mounted on.
I'm aware that you'll come across different uses of terms like "torpedo battery" (you'll find it used as a description of a torpedogun aboard larges vessels for instance, in some navies). However, the topic we're discussing here are german floating torpedo batteries, and that's not a "moveable" platform (which would be a torpedo-carrying ship of some sort).
glenn239 wrote:The question was whether or not this type of weapon was mounted on small coastal vessels, or not.
Yes, that has been verifyed numerous times by now, including on german ships. I have no idea wether such were intended used for "sealion", but again: Most likely not in the capacaty as a floating torpedo battery (if my assumption is wrong, I'd love to see some documentation on this).
glenn239 wrote:The follow up observation being that a tug boat with a 20mm cannon was probably less dangerous to a destroyer wishing to approach to within 2,000 yards than was a tug boat with a 20mm cannon and a pair of 53cm torpedoes.
Of course, and that kind of deception was a common practice among most partcipants of WW2 as far as I know. I'm not sure if the germans used a special term for their smaller vessels with "ad-hoc" torpedo-installations, but the larger ones were called hilfkreuzer (an armed ship disguised as civilian). The british used the term raider, q-ship etc.

Anyhow - this is a different topic than floating torpedobatteries...

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