6 Panzerschiff class "Deutschland" were considered??

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aurelien wolff
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6 Panzerschiff class "Deutschland" were considered??

Post by aurelien wolff » 02 Sep 2019 08:26

is that true ? One of my source on that class say that 6 were considered even if other soruce only say 3 were ordered/considered,did they count ship from the Z Plan ?

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Takao
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Re: 6 Panzerschiff class "Deutschland" were considered??

Post by Takao » 02 Sep 2019 10:06

No, the Z Plan ships were not counted.

Germany was able to retain 6 pre-dreanoughts under the Versailles Treaty. That treaty also limited Germany to 10,000 ton maximum per new warship. As such, 6 Panzerschiff would replace the pre-dreanoughts as they ended their service lives. Political events overtook naval planning and the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were the fourth and fifth replacements.

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Re: 6 Panzerschiff class "Deutschland" were considered??

Post by aurelien wolff » 02 Sep 2019 11:59

thanks,why wasn't the 6 panzerschiff build?

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Re: 6 Panzerschiff class "Deutschland" were considered??

Post by Thoddy » 03 Sep 2019 06:51

A Deutschland
B Admiral Scheer
C Admiral Graf Spee
D Scharnhorst
E Gneisenau
F Bismarck
G Tirpitz
H, J, K, L, M, N battleships of the H-Class
"Meine Herren, es kann ein siebenjähriger, es kann ein dreißigjähriger Krieg werden – und wehe dem, der zuerst die Lunte in das Pulverfaß schleudert!"

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Takao
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Re: 6 Panzerschiff class "Deutschland" were considered??

Post by Takao » 04 Sep 2019 09:56

Thoddy wrote:
03 Sep 2019 06:51
A Deutschland
B Admiral Scheer
C Admiral Graf Spee
D Scharnhorst
E Gneisenau
F Bismarck
G Tirpitz
H, J, K, L, M, N battleships of the H-Class
Should be

A Deutschland
B Admiral Scheer
C Admiral Graf Spee
D Panzerschiff D, replaced by Ersatz Elsass, replaced by Scharnhorst
E Panzerschiff E, replaced by Ersatz Hessen, replaced by Gneisenau
F Panzerschiff F, replaced by Bismarck
G Tirpitz
H, J, K, L, M, N battleships of the H-Class

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Takao
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Re: 6 Panzerschiff class "Deutschland" were considered??

Post by Takao » 04 Sep 2019 10:06

aurelien wolff wrote:
02 Sep 2019 11:59
thanks,why wasn't the 6 panzerschiff build?
The financial and political climate of 1920"s thru early 1930"s Germany prevented the procurement of all 6 replacements in a short period of time. So, the procurement was spread out over several years. By 1933, the last 3 replacement Panzerschiff had not yet been contracted, an th Nazis wanted larger warships to equal the French Dunkerque. So, they improved on the original Panzerschiff design with additional armor, these were the D-Class Ersatz Elsass and Ersatz Hessen. But a few months after the keel laying of Ersatz Elsass, the order was cancelled for the much improved Scharnhorst design.

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Takao
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Re: 6 Panzerschiff class "Deutschland" were considered??

Post by Takao » 04 Sep 2019 12:12

Forgot to add the Wiki to the improved Deutschland design, the D-Class.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-class ... _(Germany)

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Re: 6 Panzerschiff class "Deutschland" were considered??

Post by Thoddy » 05 Sep 2019 06:51

Takao wrote:
04 Sep 2019 09:56

Should be

A Deutschland
B Admiral Scheer
C Admiral Graf Spee
D Panzerschiff D, replaced by Ersatz Elsass, replaced by Scharnhorst
E Panzerschiff E, replaced by Ersatz Hessen, replaced by Gneisenau
F Panzerschiff F, replaced by Bismarck
G Tirpitz
H, J, K, L, M, N battleships of the H-Class
If you start nitpicking you should make it absolutely correct ;) now its some kind of mixup.
"Meine Herren, es kann ein siebenjähriger, es kann ein dreißigjähriger Krieg werden – und wehe dem, der zuerst die Lunte in das Pulverfaß schleudert!"

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Re: 6 Panzerschiff class "Deutschland" were considered??

Post by Polar bear » 05 Sep 2019 14:26

Takao wrote:
04 Sep 2019 09:56
Should be

A Deutschland
B Admiral Scheer
C Admiral Graf Spee
D Panzerschiff D, replaced by Ersatz Elsass, replaced by Scharnhorst
E Panzerschiff E, replaced by Ersatz Hessen, replaced by Gneisenau
F Panzerschiff F, replaced by Bismarck
G Tirpitz
H, J, K, L, M, N battleships of the H-Class
a new proposal :D with somewhat less mixup :wink:
Ersatz Preussen / Panzerschiff A -> Deutschland
Ersatz Lothringen / Panzerschiff B -> Admiral Scheer
Ersatz Braunschweig / Panzerschiff C -> Admiral Graf Spee
Ersatz Elsass / Panzerschiff D, keel laid, but broken up, instead Ersatz Elsass / Schlachtschiff D -> Scharnhorst
Ersatz Hessen / Panzerschiff E, keel laid, but broken up, instead Ersatz Hessen / Schlachtschiff E -> Gneisenau

Ersatz Hannover / Schlachtschiff F -> Bismarck
Ersatz Schleswig-Holstein / Schlachtschiff G -> Tirpitz

greetings, the pb
Peace hath her victories no less renowned than War
(John Milton, the poet, in a letter to the Lord General Cromwell, May 1652)

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Re: 6 Panzerschiff class "Deutschland" were considered??

Post by aurelien wolff » 05 Sep 2019 17:31

you didn't count the sixth panzeschiff Polar Bear? why?

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Takao
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Re: 6 Panzerschiff class "Deutschland" were considered??

Post by Takao » 06 Sep 2019 13:53

Polar bear wrote:
05 Sep 2019 14:26
Takao wrote:
04 Sep 2019 09:56
Should be

A Deutschland
B Admiral Scheer
C Admiral Graf Spee
D Panzerschiff D, replaced by Ersatz Elsass, replaced by Scharnhorst
E Panzerschiff E, replaced by Ersatz Hessen, replaced by Gneisenau
F Panzerschiff F, replaced by Bismarck
G Tirpitz
H, J, K, L, M, N battleships of the H-Class
a new proposal :D with somewhat less mixup :wink:
Ersatz Preussen / Panzerschiff A -> Deutschland
Ersatz Lothringen / Panzerschiff B -> Admiral Scheer
Ersatz Braunschweig / Panzerschiff C -> Admiral Graf Spee
Ersatz Elsass / Panzerschiff D, keel laid, but broken up, instead Ersatz Elsass / Schlachtschiff D -> Scharnhorst
Ersatz Hessen / Panzerschiff E, keel laid, but broken up, instead Ersatz Hessen / Schlachtschiff E -> Gneisenau

Ersatz Hannover / Schlachtschiff F -> Bismarck
Ersatz Schleswig-Holstein / Schlachtschiff G -> Tirpitz

greetings, the pb
To the best of my knowledge, Ersatz Hessen was only planned- never ordered or laid down.

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Takao
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Re: 6 Panzerschiff class "Deutschland" were considered??

Post by Takao » 09 Sep 2019 09:43

Well, to really bake your noodle, it now appears that there were to have been 8 Panzerschiff. Per a 1929 agreement on warship construction ratified in 1932.

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Re: 6 Panzerschiff class "Deutschland" were considered??

Post by aurelien wolff » 09 Sep 2019 15:00

source?

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Takao
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Re: 6 Panzerschiff class "Deutschland" were considered??

Post by Takao » 09 Sep 2019 23:21

The Marine Arsenal book on Admiral Scheer and
"Pocket battleships of the Deutschland class: Deutschland/Lützow, Admiral Scheer, Admiral Graf Spee" by Gerhard Koop and Klaus-Peter Schmolke.

Marine Arsenal has the original German Title of the agreement, and the Pocket Battleship book gives the English title translation.

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Re: 6 Panzerschiff class "Deutschland" were considered??

Post by aurelien wolff » 10 Sep 2019 07:20

thanks!

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