Where did Graf Zeppelin's 10,5cm FlaK go?

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Panzerspitze
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Where did Graf Zeppelin's 10,5cm FlaK go?

Post by Panzerspitze » 26 Jul 2021 03:29

diverted to where?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_air ... f_Zeppelin

"Meanwhile, the German conquest of Norway in April 1940 eroded any chance of completing Graf Zeppelin. Now responsible for defending Norway's long coastline and numerous port facilities, the Kriegsmarine urgently needed large numbers of coastal guns and anti-aircraft batteries. During a naval conference with Hitler on 28 April 1940, Admiral Erich Raeder proposed halting all work on Graf Zeppelin, arguing that even if she was commissioned by the end of 1940, final installation of her guns would need another ten months or more (her original fire-control system had been sold to the Soviet Union under an earlier trade agreement).[10] Hitler consented to the stop work order, allowing Raeder to have Graf Zeppelin's 15 cm guns removed and transferred to Norway. The carrier's heavy flak armament of twelve 10.5 cm guns had already been diverted elsewhere.[11]"

EwenS
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Re: Where did Graf Zeppelin's 10,5cm FlaK go?

Post by EwenS » 26 Jul 2021 12:07

From “Freedom of the Seas. The Story of Hitler’s Aircraft Carrier - Graf Zeppelin”

The 150mm guns were used to provide shore batteries in Norway. It says this about her AA guns following immediately on from discussions of Raeder’s personal notes of 29 April 1940:-

“Graf Zeppelin’s anti-aircraft weaponry had already been assigned to other more pressing needs; to regain possession of this weaponry could only be done at the expense of the Army.....”

I’m not clear from that if it means they had gone to the Army or that production of replacements would be at the expense of the Army. It also gives no clue as to whether it was just the guns themselves or the complete twin gun mounts that were diverted.

That book also notes that in April/May 1940, U-boat Command had a train load of equipment ready to exploit newly acquired French harbours on the Atlantic coast. That departed Germany the day after the French surrender. I believe that was the train that went to Lorient and arrived before the end of June. Wiki notes it carried “replenishment supplies and ordnance”. The latter term may hold clues. That new base at Lorient would have needed protected with AA guns.

So possibly the two are linked in some way. If not Lorient there were plenty of other places that needed protected.

Panzerspitze
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Re: Where did Graf Zeppelin's 10,5cm FlaK go?

Post by Panzerspitze » 31 Jul 2021 04:38

EwenS wrote:
26 Jul 2021 12:07
From “Freedom of the Seas. The Story of Hitler’s Aircraft Carrier - Graf Zeppelin”

The 150mm guns were used to provide shore batteries in Norway. It says this about her AA guns following immediately on from discussions of Raeder’s personal notes of 29 April 1940:-

“Graf Zeppelin’s anti-aircraft weaponry had already been assigned to other more pressing needs; to regain possession of this weaponry could only be done at the expense of the Army.....”

I’m not clear from that if it means they had gone to the Army or that production of replacements would be at the expense of the Army. It also gives no clue as to whether it was just the guns themselves or the complete twin gun mounts that were diverted.

That book also notes that in April/May 1940, U-boat Command had a train load of equipment ready to exploit newly acquired French harbours on the Atlantic coast. That departed Germany the day after the French surrender. I believe that was the train that went to Lorient and arrived before the end of June. Wiki notes it carried “replenishment supplies and ordnance”. The latter term may hold clues. That new base at Lorient would have needed protected with AA guns.

So possibly the two are linked in some way. If not Lorient there were plenty of other places that needed protected.
Yeah, Raeder's remark is really confounding, the latter part seems to mean competing with the Heer for raw material and production bandwidth, while "regain possession" seems to say otherwise.

If the Kriegsmarine had to cannibalize its own warships in order to provide air protection for its bases, this brings a question I had never considered before: Were the Kriegsmarine's land-based AA not predominantly composed of FlaK 88, like the Luftwaffe and the Heer? I wasn't even aware of the 10,5cm (especially the twin shipborne version) could be used on land.

EwenS
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Re: Where did Graf Zeppelin's 10,5cm FlaK go?

Post by EwenS » 31 Jul 2021 08:24

The Luftwaffe had both 105mm and 128mm AA guns but these were too heavy for use in the field which is why the 88mm is seen most often. So mostly in twin and single fixed mounts although IIRC there was a carriage like the 88 for a version of the 105. Wiki suggests the Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine guns were the same weapon but with different mounts. The 128mm in twin mounts was used in the various flak towers.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/10.5_cm_FlaK_38
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/12.8_cm_FlaK_40
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flak_tower

Land mounts wouldn’t require the complex stabilisation of naval mounts.

If the naval guns were purloined in this way then I would suggest that rather than just taking the whole naval mount and putting it somewhere on land, it is more likely that the guns themselves were reused in simpler land mounts.

ROLAND1369
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Re: Where did Graf Zeppelin's 10,5cm FlaK go?

Post by ROLAND1369 » 03 Aug 2021 12:36

The 105 MM C33 twin mounts were used at ashore at Lorient, Brest, and St Nazaire by the KM flak batteries in their original Twin Mount configuration. No indication as to their providence or the interchangeability of their ammunition with the 105 MM M38 used by the Luftwaffe. Aside from the C 33s of the Graf Zepplelin, those of the CA Seydltz and other cancelled ships were available.

Panzerspitze
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Re: Where did Graf Zeppelin's 10,5cm FlaK go?

Post by Panzerspitze » 13 Aug 2021 06:11

Would the land-based 10,5cm be using the same fire control as the dome-like ones on German warships?

I'm also wondering how many 10,5cm were deployed at the famous Flakturm at the Strasse von Messina, the highly successful air-defense operation of German troops' retreat from Sicily, since it was primarily orchestrated by the Kriegsmarine.

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Re: Where did Graf Zeppelin's 10,5cm FlaK go?

Post by ROLAND1369 » 13 Aug 2021 13:24

The vast majority of the German Navys 105 MM were single mounted C 32s emplaced in batteries of 4 single mounted C32 models either in an open backed shield or an armored cupola, these are what would have been used in Italy. They had a central armored rangefinder/director. I have seen no photo or other evidence as to the use of the original stabilized fire control director with the land based dual 105 MM mounts. I would suspect that they used the standard land based model used by the single mounts as there would be no use for the stabilization system, with its complicated maintenance, on fixed land based systems.

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