Did the germans build good ships?

[hauptmannn]

I think it has been well known even in ww1 that the germans built ships that were very taking mulitple hits nd not sinking (survivable) and durable.

I'll give you an example from the Battle of Jutland: "Despite the success of the U-boats, Vice-Admiral Reinhard Scheer wanted to make productive use of Germany's High Sea Fleet of great surface ships, whose commander he had been appointed in January 1916. His plan was to provoke an encounter on the open sea between the entire High Seas Fleet and some smaller portion of the British Fleet. If Scheer could contrive the confrontation so that the entire British Fleet could not assemble, he would enjoy a temporary superiority of numbers tat wouls surely bring victory.

As scheer wanted to lure out elements of the British Fleet, so the British admirals wanted to lure the Germans into fatal action. In February 1916, German cruisers swept past Dogger Bank, and three weeks later a combined zeppelin and HIgh Seas raid attempted to draw the British Harwich Force out to sea. The British replied with a series of similar raids, including a seaplane attack on supposed zeppelin sheds at Hoyer. These operations failed, and scheer resolved to ambush Admiral David Beatty's battle cruiser squadron at Rostrh, halfway up Britain's eastern coast, and attack and destroy it before reinforcements from the Grand Fleet's main base at Scapa Flow, on the northern tip of Scotland, could arrive. Ti bait the trap, Scheer ordered five battle cruisers (designated the 1st Scouting Group), together with four light cruisers (the 2nd Scouting Group, under Rear Admiral Friedrich Bodicker, who was screened by two flotillas of destroyers), to sail north under the command of Vice-Admiral Franz von Hipper from Wilhelmshaven, Germany to a position off the southwestern coast of Norway. Scheer, commanding the battle squadrons of the High Seas Fleet, would follow 50 miles behind and would entrap Beatty's ships between the High Seas Fleet and Hipper's and Bodicker's squadrons.

It ws a daring and risky plan that depended entirely on secrecy; however, the radio message intiating the operation was intercepted by British naval intelligence. On May 30, the entire British Grand Fleet set off for Norway's southwestern coast.

For both sides, the stakes were the highest possible. Admiral Scheer saw an opportunity to reduce the British Grand Fleet, thereby evening the odds of the naval war and putting Germany in position to dominate the high seas. Moreoever, if the British fleet was sufficiently damaged damaged, the Britsh blockade of Germany might well be broken. Sir John R. Jellicoe, the British admiral, understood that he had the opportunity to surprise the German High Seas Fleet and to overawe or destroy it with superior British numbers. He was also well aware, as Winston Churchill later put it in a history of the war, that "he was the only man on either side who could lose the war in an afternoon."

Substantial losses for the Germans would be very bad, but such losses would be totally catastrophic for the British. Naval superiority was the chief advantage the Allies enjoyed. It kept them supplied, and it prevented the Germans from cutting them off entirely. If the British lost many ships, that advantage would collapse. With it would collapse the Allied war effort.

German High Seas Fleet
Admiral Scheer led 99 vessels into battle, many of them of the most advanced design. These included the following:
16 dreadnought-class battleships
6 pre-dreadnough-class battleships
5 battle bruisers
11 light cruisers
61 destroyers (standard, light destroyers)

British Grand Fleet
Admirals Jellicoe and Beatty had 151 ships, but a number of them were of older design than the German vessels. They included these:
28 dreadnough-class battleships
9 battle cruisers
8 armoured cruisers
26 light cruisers
5 destroyer leaders (heavy destroyers)
73 destroyers (standard, light destroyers)
1 minelayer
1 deaplane

At 2:20 in the afternoon of May 31, Beatty's advance guard of light cruisers spotted Bodicker's scouting ships, light cruisers, and opened fire. Both English and Germans were surprised, but Hipper had spotted Beatty first and, after making visual contact with the British battle cruisers, turned, then began to steam back toward the German main fleet. At 3:31 pm, Beatty turned on a course parallel to Hipper's squadron. This is precisely what Hipper had hoped for;however, he was unaware that Beatty had signaled Admiral Hugh Evan-Thomas, in command of a squadron of four new super dreadnoughts, to follow.

Now the two cruiser forces opened fire at a range of 16,500 yards. The German guns were bigger and their gunnery more accurate than the British, and the German ammunition was superior. By the cold mathematics of war this gave Hipper all the cards. Within 50 minutes, Beatty's flagship, the Lion-and Princess Royal and Tiger as well-had been severely damaged, and the lightly armoured British battle cruisers began to fall. The Indefatigable exploded and capsized, and the Queen Mary was sunk 20 minutes afterward. The Seydlitz, Derfflinger and Lutzow had also taken heavy hits. Beatty was left with four ships against Hipper's five, although Evan-Thomas was steaming behind him with the great battleships. Recognizing that the Germans had a gunnery advantage at long range, Beatty refused to turn tail but instead boldly ordered his ships to engage the enemy closer.

A lesser man than Beatty would have panicked. Afteral all, in the opening minutes of the engagement , The German guns had proved more powerful and more accurate than the British, and the German ships themselves stronger, capable of taking multiple hits and still remaining serviceable. But Beatty kept his head, and he kept his focus on the objective at hand. In the meantime, Hipper had sighted the super dreadnoughts of Evan-Thomas's 5th Battle Squadron. A running fight ensued , in which ships on both sides took substantial damage. H.M.S Queen Mary exploded and sank at 4:26 pm. At this time, Beatty was still to the west of the German squadron, a position silhouetted his ships against the evening sun. Throughout the engagement, while the great ships raced southward, the light cruisers and destroyers fought their own grim duels between the lines of battling leviathians.

At about 4:30, Commodore Goodenough's 2nd Light Cruiser Squadron, which steamed ahead of Beatty, sighted the masts and black coal smoke of Scheer's Battleships. He sent a radio signal to Jellico:"Have sighted enemy battle fleet, bearing SE. Enemy's course North." Jellicoe's main force was now approaching in great parallel columns from the northwest.

Beatty now warned that the German fleet was about 12 miles ahead, immediately ordered a turn back toward Jellicoe and the fleet. As the British battle cruisers headed north, Beatty attempted to signal Evan-Thomas, but poor visibility delayed the order until the super dreadnoughts was dangerously close to the Germans. Thee battleships were severely mauled as they turned away. Meanwhile, Beatty, still paralleled by Hipper, turned his ships to the northest across the front of Jellicoe's advancing fleet.

At the head of the fleet and in advance of it was the 3rd Battle squadron, consisting of three battle cruisers and two light cruisers led by Read Admiral Sir Horace Hood. Hood raced to the southeast to support Beatty, believing that Beatty was still ahead. Seeing gunfire to the west, however he now turned and headed toward the action, He was quickly engaged in a swirling battle with Hipper's crisers and destroyers.

Then Hood's luck ran out. He found himself under fire from both Scheer and Hipper. As usual the British ship proved less survivable than its German counterpart. Hit at 6:34, Hood's flagship exploded, breaking in two before it plunged to the bottom, carrying with it the admiral and all hands. Two British cruisers Defence and Warrior were also sunk. Despite these losses, the British Grand Fleet had now maneuvered acroos the front of the German High Seas Fleet. This maneuver, a classic naval battle tactic is called crossing the T . Scheer's Fleet was positioned like the vertical stroke of the letter T while the British fleet was perpendicular to it, like the T's horizontal stroke, blocking the progress of the Germans. Moreoever, in this position, more of the British ships could bring to bear more fire than the German ships could return. The British ships vessels were arrayed so that they had clear fields of fire, whereas the German ships were stacked up, one behind the other.

Jellicoe took every advantage of his excellent position. Yet, despite their intense peril, the German ships survived. They were built superbly, and their crews were courageous and thoroughly disciplined under withering fire.

In a display of brilliant seamanship, Scheer generated a smoke screen and dispacted his destroyers to attack wherever they could-all in a effort to mask a perfectly executed 180 degrees battle turn by his entire fleet. IT was a supremely difficult maneuver that required all of the ships turn simultaneously, but it was a maneuver that the Germans had practiced constantly. This sent the German fleet westward and took Scheer's ships out of the range of most the British fleet. Jellicoe had been taken totally by surprise. But now it was Scheer's turn to be fooled.

He had no intention of running away from the British. At 6:55, he executed another 180 degrees turn to steam back towards Jellicoe's fleet. Presumably, he believed that British admiral had divided his forces, which would give him a new opportunity to take advantage of his own temporarily superior numbers. This proved a terrible mistake because Scheer was now once again under the guns of the entire British force. The outcome of the battle suddenly seemed a foregone conclusion. Scheer looked to be doomed.

But Scheer did not give up. While four German battle cruisers charged suicidally in what contemporaries call a "death ride" toward the British line, Scheer turned the rest rest of his fleet away from Jellicoe.

The "death ride" battle cruisers were hammered and severely damaged- two of them, the Seydlitz and Derfflinger, were consumed in flames-yet they remained in action. Under cover of a smoke screen, fast German destroyers close in on Jellicoe's battleships to fire torpedoes.

Historians of the Battle of Jutland refer to this moment as "the crisis." If Jellicoe had boldly ordered the Grand Fleet to advance through the confused and disorganized array of German battle cruisers, Scheer would almost surely have been defeated. Instead, however, the British commander was overcome by fear of torpedo attacks from the destroyers. In fit of prudence, he ordered his fleet to turn away-precisely when boldness would have meant victory. By the time the British admiral decided to re-engage the enemy, Scheer had disappeared over the horizon.

Most astoundingly of all, the four German battle cruisers, though badly battered, had come through the death ride, having accomplished-and survived!-a suicide mission.

Were there any accounts of German ships being very survivable and durable in ww2?

[Westwall]

The "Bismarck" was a beast but a very unlucky one...

[Rommel8]

Along with the Scharnhorst, Prinz Eugen, and Gneisenau

[Xavier]

german ship design suffered a flaw that doomed Bismark, and almost Prinz Eugen too..


the rudder and propellers, stood outside the main belt of armor, that made the tail of the ships prone to damage. as received by bismark.

O another time, Prinz eugen suffered damage so massive, that the entire rear section had to be removed, and a manual steering system (first electrically powered, by a capstan, but after the capstan failed, reverted to manpower, had to be rigged for the return of the ship to germany.

I do not remember now very well, but I think another KM ship suffered the same kind of damage.

best regards

Xavier
the link scrounger

[John W]

That was a very interesting story Hauptmann! Thanks for posting it

[Takao]

Xavier,

You are correct about the third one. It was the Lutzow(ex-Deutschland). She lost her stern to a torpedo from HMS Spearfish.

The German ships of WW2 were well designed to take punishment (Thank God they never built a good engineering plant), but then again, so were most warships of the era.

Lutzow, Prinz Eugen, and the Leipzig offer good stories of survival. Bismarck and Scharnhorst took massive quantities of damage before sinking.

For the Americans: USS Laffey, USS Franklin, USS Houston(CL-81), USS San Francisco, and USS Canberra come to mind about tales of survival. Iam sure ther are many others.

For the Japanese: the Mogami, Takao, Kumano & final sorties of Musashi and Yamato (neither survived but each took massive damage before sinking).

[varjag]

The Germans certainly built very well protected ships but as Takao correctly points out - so did other navies. Only the Germans seems to have had more opportunity to prove it, with a lot of attention (perhaps too much attention...) focussed on the sinkings of BISMARCK and SCHARNHORST. One would have to agree again with Takao - that their achievements in the engineering department, not with diesels, but with steam-turbine propulsion - fell far short of other navies and was an endless headache to commanders and staffs when the ships were at sea.

[hauptmannn]

That was a very interesting story Hauptmann! Thanks for posting it

I'm glad you like it

Were there any accounts of german u-boats being able to survive a little past their depth limit?

[seele02]

I CAN ONLY SAY: YES THEY DID BUILD GOOD SHIPS!!!

BISMARCK RULES!!!!

[Punk_Waffen]

Although the Bismarck went down, i do think it was a great ship!

[Daniel L]

Try to keep your posts constructive.

Best regards/ Daniel

[redcoat]

In my view the best German ships were the S-boats, they were the best of their class, better than any other nation.
The worse were the German destroyers, unreliable engines, and very poor sea-keeping.
The German Battleships were good ships but taking into account the money and effort put into them they could have been better.

[stcamp]

I do not the answer but an excellent post.

[John W]

The German Battleships were good ships but taking into account the money and effort put into them they could have been better.

Hey Redcoat:

Could the fault be in the performance of the ships themselves or the circumstances/tactics with which they were used?

[genstab]

The German Battleships were good ships but taking into account the money and effort put into them they could have been better.

Hey Redcoat:

Could the fault be in the performance of the ships themselves or the circumstances/tactics with which they were used?

Genstab: I would have liked to see Bismarck cross swords with USS North Carolina or Washington- that's all I'll say. Washington made short work of HIJMS Kirishima at Second Guadalcanal.