Did the germans build good ships?

[varjag]

Let's agree to disagree Redcoat - I think, and some weighty opinion agrees, that even if 'Achmed' Bey's destroyers couldn't maintain SCHARNHORST's speed in prevailing conditions (but neither could the RN's) he would have been in a much better position if he'd had them when the blow fell. BUt I agree with your basic tenet, that RN warships were far more seaworthy than those of the Kriegsmarine which, in the final analysis, really was a fresh-water navy.

[1812]

I would say they built good ships. Bismarck was a very good ship. It was hit with hundreds of shells 4 torpedoes or more and still did not sink. The crew had to sink it themselves. I doubt any american or british ships of that time could take that kind of a beating and still float.

[hauptmannn]

In the movie U-571 the americans commented on the german u-boats durability and good contruction when they dove to near crush depth limit to escape the destroyer's depth charges.

[Grünherz]

In the movie U-571 the americans commented on the german u-boats durability and good contruction when they dove to near crush depth limit to escape the destroyer's depth charges.

and in "Das Boot". (Well, the Americans didn't comment!).
Tom

[hauptmannn]

and in "Das Boot".

I must get that movie Seems to be highly recommended.

[varjag]

In the u-boat building game the Germans certainly were excellent. 'Das Boot' appearently settled on the bottom of Gibraltar straits at a depth of about 825 feet (250 meters) - and held. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think test-depth for the Type VII's were around 150 meters or 500 feet, yet it was proven again and again during the war that the VII's could go very much deeper than the allies thought possible. Of course the deep-diving properties of his ship was much up to the commanders nerve and those that never lost their nerve - never surfaced again. But it seems that the German Type VII subs dived deeper that any of their opponents submarines - and hence had some advantage. With a superior ship.

[hauptmannn]

That is quite remarkable!

[Mark V]

Germans studied the behaviour of vessels in high pressure scientifically in 20s and 30s - and their pressure hull designs were indeed superior (and above all - very tough construction).

Test depth was typical German engineering - with large safety factor. Though - legends about VII B/Cs submerging to 300 metres regularily is just it - legend.

Mark V

[1812]

Weren't the germans working on theories for nuclear powered submarines at the end of the war?

U-boats had to be strong. Churchill did say that was the one thing that scared him in the war.

[Grünherz]

Weren't the germans working on theories for nuclear powered submarines at the end of the war?

I've never heard that one (as the German nuclear program was not as progressed as the Allies) but I would like to hear more, if you have some sources!
Tom

[Witch-King of Angmar]

Germany would have had a long range four- engine bomber for the Luftwaffe as well...totalitarians always overreach.

They had a four-engine long range bomber, FW-200 Condor.

There were some guys who suggested the designers should have dropped the 6in/150mm guns on the German battleships and replace them with 4.1in/105mm used as AA. Tirpitz had 16 x 105mm guns, if the 150mm ones were replaced also, this makes 30 x 105mm altogether, a pretty impressive AA battery. Iowa barely had 20 x 127mm AA guns.

Test depth was typical German engineering - with large safety factor. Though - legends about VII B/Cs submerging to 300 metres regularily is just it - legend.

Type VIIC/41 had stronger hull plating than standard Type VIIC and could dive below 300 meters for short time.

However, in all fairness, the loss of these ships was due primarily to improper utilization. The Hood never should have engaged a ship as powerful as Bismarck

Hood was the only battleship in the RN able to catch and outmanoeuver Bismarck, Prince of Wales was slower by 2 knots, Renown-class battlecruisers had too thin armor. Hood had a 1-1.5 knots advantage over Bismarck in good conditions.

As for Bismarck against any 16-in gunned battleship of the US Navy, I don't see exactly why it would fare worse than against Rodney. 700 direct hits could not sink it. No other warship in history could resist that. The hit to the steering gear, "lucky" or unlucky, was the only thing to cripple it, this was Achilles' heel.

~The Witch-King of Angmar

[redcoat]

[
As for Bismarck against any 16-in gunned battleship of the US Navy, I don't see exactly why it would fare worse than against Rodney. 700 direct hits could not sink it.

So what :roll: within 20 minutes of the start of the battle the Bismarck was a total wreak unable to defend herself, and the fact she hadn't sunk had more to do with the angle the shells were hitting her than anything else. The RN ships were firing at such close range no shells were causing damage below the water-line.
But if you look at the damage caused by the POW in the earlier battle on the Bismarck you find that despite the fact that only 3 shells hit they caused such extensive flooding that the crew had to flood compartments on the other side of the ship to correct the 7% list it caused

No other warship in history could resist that.

Not true.

The hit to the steering gear, "lucky" or unlucky, was the only thing to cripple it, this was Achilles' heel.

Has less to do with luck, more to do with design fault waiting to happen. The torpedo didn't hit the steering gear it hit the stern which caused a whiplash effect which caused the stern to collapse on top of the rudders.
This was a common fault on German WW2 heavy warships, the Germans were forced to correct this fault on a number of their ships in 42-3.

[varjag]

Witch-King on subject of HOOD's best speed I have read that her peak, due to old age and much additional armour, at the time of her sinking - was only about 29,5 knots. Not that it was important on 24.5.41 but there it is.

[Witch-King of Angmar]

So what :roll: within 20 minutes of the start of the battle the Bismarck was a total wreak unable to defend herself

This should have been obvious, a stationary ship is subject to the movements of the water around, rolls and pitches randomly all the time, and an inch of movement at the ship is translated in tens or hundreds of yards at the target. If she doesn't have a significant speed, the guns will never hit anything but water; like when riding a bicycle, you need to move to keep everything in balance. That's why the stern hit was the decisive one.

~The Witch-King of Angmar

[Erich]

Schnellboote...........hands down 8)


Torpedos los!