HK STIER and the Arado 231 seaplane

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varjag
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HK STIER and the Arado 231 seaplane

#1

Post by varjag » 20 Sep 2004, 03:08

It is recorded that the German Hilfskreuzer STIER was equipped with two (prototypes) of this aircraft. In any list of useless Luftwaffe a/c - the Ar 231 must come near the top, which suggests a desperate shortage of float-planes when they were issued to th STIER. Even the Arado 196 was a fragile proposition to use on the oceans - the Ar 231 must have been a nightmare. Is there any recorded narrative of actual operational use of these two Arados on her war-cruise?

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David C. Clarke
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#2

Post by David C. Clarke » 20 Sep 2004, 03:45

Hi Varyag! The answer is yes and no! I have two pictures of one of Stier's aircraft in the water. But.... Gerlach's pilot Karl Heinz Decker found he could only take off with the radio removed and one fourth of its fuel drained. In early July 1942, the starboard float broke on landing, capsizing the plane and a few days later, on July 5th, the port strut snapped. It was then found that the second Arado wouldn't fly.
Interestingly, Stier was to have gotten an Arado 196 A 3, but the commander preferred the two 231s. And, the hatch in which the plane was stored may not have been large enough for the Arado 196 A3.
See Muggenthaler "German Raiders of World War II", page 221.

Best Regards,
David


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#3

Post by varjag » 20 Sep 2004, 03:59

Thanks David. Have read that the Ar 231 'decision' was one he came to regret - but didn't know that he opted for them in preference to the Ar 196. The point about the hatch-size on a 4000-ton ship is certainly valid and would have been a consideration (unless modified) even on larger ships. Haven't read Muggenthalers book - but Gerlach's experiences with the '231' are not surprising.

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David C. Clarke
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#4

Post by David C. Clarke » 20 Sep 2004, 04:27

Yes Varjag, until you wrote, I hadn't taken a real look at the 231--it looks like a kite compared to the 196 (which isn't exactly sturdy in my view either). Odd that the Germans had more success in WWI with "Wolfchen" than with the 231 in WWII!!!!
Thanks for a post that made me look at the commerce raiders again. :D
(Damn I wish someone would release a good model of one in a large scale!)

Best Regards,
David

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#5

Post by varjag » 20 Sep 2004, 13:36

Indeed David - the '231' was indeed a ramshackle kite - meant for U-Boats. The U-Boat command regained their senses before they did at Arado - but I suppose, once their money had been wasted - they had to recoup some of the expenses, and did. I - too, like the Hilfskreuzer - a far better return per Reichsmark, manhour or GRT - than any of the battleships, Panzerschiffe or cruisers, for Germany. But alas, to model them - HOW? There's far less info of their day-to-day/week-to-week change of colours and disguises - than about 'the regulars'. Perhaps just modelling - or the difficulty of it, has diminished their importance in our understanding of the Kriegsmarine.

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Erich
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#6

Post by Erich » 20 Sep 2004, 17:59

wasn't there a German firm that did a larger scale some years back.. Probably worth or a look or gone from the ages of time.

you guys are also familiar with the transport of 1-2 kleine S-boots on one to two of the Hilfskreuzers ?

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#7

Post by varjag » 21 Sep 2004, 01:37

Erich wrote:wasn't there a German firm that did a larger scale some years back.. Probably worth or a look or gone from the ages of time.

you guys are also familiar with the transport of 1-2 kleine S-boots on one to two of the Hilfskreuzers ?
Yes Erich, one or two of the HK carried a small MTB, KORMORAN had one - have forgotten the other. They don't seem to have been very successful though. The concept of launching a boat at sea - is fraught with risks unless conditions are very clement - which may have limited their use. You wouldn't happen to have a picture of one of those MTB's with some data about their weight, engine arrangements and speed capabilities...? Rgds, Varjag

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David C. Clarke
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#8

Post by David C. Clarke » 21 Sep 2004, 01:40

Hi Erich, believe it or not, my books indicate that the first torpedo boat carried by an auxiliary cruiser was in 1895, aboard Normannia.

Torpedo boat LS 2 (Meteroit) shipped aboard Kormoran as
did LS 3, which sank with Kormoran.

LS-4 (Esau) shipped aborad Michel and actually sank US merchantmen Connecticut and George Clymer. Esau eventually was lost with Michel.

I've got to say that I always thought carrying an on-board torpedo boat was a bit of an unecessary encumbrance. A good scout plane would have been helpful though.

Oh, I almost forgot, the only large scale kit of an auxiliary cruiser I can remember was Atlantis, by Aurora. I never had the kit and it's a collector's item today, worth too much money for the age and accuracy of the kit. There are a few auxilliary cruisers available toady, but they are in resin (YECH!) and 1/700 scale. Very disappointing considering the efforts of these ships. But, I suppose the model companies are happy producing their nth version of Bismarck....... :roll:

Best Regards,
David

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#9

Post by varjag » 21 Sep 2004, 03:44

Thanks David...once I had some names and proper class designation I googled and found some sparse detail with a few pictures. Jeezuz Christ - they weighed in at 11½ tons - quite a lump to hang under derricks on a heaving ship - even in very moderate seas, or were they rigged under davits, like their life-boats?

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#10

Post by David C. Clarke » 21 Sep 2004, 04:14

Varjag, I think they were carried on deck or in the hold--I have to check.
Arghhh! I've been waiting for this Thread to come alive all night and now it's time for me to go to bed. :( :( :(

I hope to talk to you tomorrow.

Best Regards,
David

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Erich
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#11

Post by Erich » 21 Sep 2004, 06:21


varjag
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#12

Post by varjag » 21 Sep 2004, 12:26

Thanks Erich - yes it was on that site that I found a couple of small pictures of them - and in fact on some Spanish language modelling site even a side-view line-drawing of one. Don't raise your hopes David, it had models of most of the raiders as well - but I think they were dealing in little die-cast 1:1250 scale waterline models - not the real thing. Erich - they seem to have weighed 11,5 tons - and from the pictures I deem them to 12-14 metres (40 -45 feet) long? They have two mine-shutes/torpedo-tubes facing the stern and some little pop-gun up front to impress.An interesting design - it would nice to learn more about their full data....any clues? Rgds, Varjag

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#13

Post by David C. Clarke » 24 Sep 2004, 01:12

Hi Varjag, I have the following specifications for the torpedo boats:

LS 2 and LS 3

Displacement-- 11.5 cu. m.
Length-- 12.50 m.
breadth--3.46 m.
working draught-- 0.92 m.
Propulsion:
2 Junkers six-cylinder two stroke Jumo 205 diesels of 700 and 850 Hp respectively.
Stöckicht wheel drive (twin three-bladed screws, twin rudders)
armament:
LS-2--three mines abreast, one 6cm. gun aft, one MG-13 in turret mount as anti-aircraft.
LS-3--four pairs of mines abreast and above each other.

Only LS-4 apparently carried torpedoes! LS-4 (Esau) carried twin torpedo mounts aft and a 2 cm. quick firing cannon.
Esau also differed in that its engines were two Daimler-Benz 12-cylinder V-type four-stroke type MB 507 diesels, each of 850 hp.

Best Regards,
David

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#14

Post by varjag » 24 Sep 2004, 03:13

Wow David - well done, now we have a bit of meat on the bones. Given such propulsion they would have had a good turn of speed - weather permitting. But - as I said before, real cows to launch and retrieve.
Best regards, Varjag

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#15

Post by David C. Clarke » 25 Sep 2004, 03:29

Varjag, I also have a source that says Esau was capable of 42.5 knots(!).

I'm still stumped by the method in which the boat was deployed.
I wonder how H.M.S. Fidelity managed with her 10 ton MTB-105?

Best Regards,
David

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