AA-cruiser Niobe

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Juha Hujanen
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Post by Juha Hujanen » 06 Dec 2004 18:45

Hi

According to Tuntematon Sota Niobe crew casualties were:70 KIA,80 Severy WIA and 30 slighly WIA.

Also AA fire claimed 6 PE-2,2 Boston and 1 IL-2 downed.

Few pics from same book.

Cheers/Juha
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RoW
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Post by RoW » 06 Dec 2004 18:57

Ouu, f..ck, Christian, your link is cool !!! "I.N.Pomarenko, N.G.Stepajan" !!! :D This pilots didn't deserve this mockery with their sonames!

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Post by RoW » 06 Dec 2004 19:13

I forgot - total number of Soviet planes was 132 (also there was an air reconnaisance units). But, I repeat, in attacking groups were only 22 Pe-2 and 4 A-20, others ensured their work.

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Christian W.
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Post by Christian W. » 06 Dec 2004 19:15

I thought so. Only one aircraft shot down was yust impossible.

And Row, stop being sarcastic. 8)

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Post by RoW » 06 Dec 2004 19:32

Christian W. wrote:I thought so. Only one aircraft shot down was yust impossible.
Impossible-impossible... But "impossible" isn't an evidence. I repeat, according Russian documents (not memoirs), Shilkin was an only loss of this strike. Can you give me Finnish data? Possibly photo of destroyed planes (Il-2 worked over the coast), any data about the dead or possibly captive pilots (their names, numbers of their units)? Russian pilots weren't meat patties - they all have their names, documents, flying books etc. Have you any information? I am really want to know the truth...

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Christian W.
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Post by Christian W. » 06 Dec 2004 20:00

As I dont have a copy of the book that Juha has, I cant tell. Juha, what does the book say about Soviet losses? However, the battle lasted about 11 minutes and Niobe wasnt unarmed. Thus, I find it impossible that only one plane was shot down. You are free to correct if Im wrong. :)

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Post by RoW » 06 Dec 2004 21:43

I checked - according commander of 51st MTAP I.F.Orlenko, captain I.V.Tihomirov was killed during placing of mines in Memel (Klaypeda) in 24.07.44. He was awarded with Hero's Star in 22.07.44 for "Niobe", but receive this order only after death. It's clear with A-20G - AA-defence in Kotka CAN'T bring down 2 or more, only lieutenant Shilkin. By the way, Christian, list of losses of 51st MTAP (look at my link) is very big, it's not propaganda! Unit was at war less than 1 year and lost 59 crews (near 200 % of normal staff). Now I want to check list of losses of 12th Guards BAP KBF, it's well-known unit too.

Also... Why Ponomarenko choose Tihomirov, Sachko and Shilkin for attack on "Niobe"? Because they have interesting experience of destruction of dam Svir'-3 across the river Svir' on June 20-21. Not only Great Britain had their own dumbusters. Of course, it wasn't something extra, but it's a pity what this normal air operations are forgotten even in Russia.
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Edward L. Hsiao
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Who was the Commander of that ship?

Post by Edward L. Hsiao » 06 Dec 2004 23:40

Gentlemen!

I wonder what was the name of the captain who commanded the Flak-cruiser Niobe,a brave German ship if I ever knew one? I was hopping that this captain of that ship was awarded a decoration from either Finland or Germany after a big battle against heavy odds. Nine or more Soviet planes shot down by that ship out of 132 was a big score. :)

Sincerely,

Edward

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Christian W.
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Post by Christian W. » 07 Dec 2004 00:15

I dont know whenever the captain on Niobe survived the battle but I certainly hope that the captain...or should I say the crew, and the ship itself received an decoration for the good and brave fight they put. :)

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Christian W.
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Post by Christian W. » 07 Dec 2004 15:37

By the way, I know this is bit of topic but I would be intrested in knowing whenever the song on this site http://rafiger.de/Homepage/Artgallery/Historic02.htm is Russian and what is the name of the song? I kinda like it. :)

RoW
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Post by RoW » 07 Dec 2004 17:09

Christian W. wrote:By the way, I know this is bit of topic but I would be intrested in knowing whenever the song on this site http://rafiger.de/Homepage/Artgallery/Historic02.htm is Russian and what is the name of the song? I kinda like it. :)
This is march "Farewell of Slavonic Woman", from First World War until now in Russia exists a tradition - to play this march when soldiers go to the war and when they return after the war.

Hey, Christian, I checked - one Pe-2 (lieutenant Menyaylov) from 12th Guards BAP KBF was very seriously damaged and made emergency landing in Lavensaari. Several planes also were lightly damaged - but no losses. I found many descriptions and evidences of this attack from Russian pilots - many of pilots are still alive. Here is very big modern interview in Russian with A.P.Anosov, he was a leader of 3rd three of planes in group of V.I.Rakov: http://www.airforce.ru/history/ww2/anosov/index.htm
I can't find any data about losses in this unit during this raid.

You have unjust method of approach: " I find it impossible that only one plane was shot down". If somebody talk, for example, "on xxx near xxx was shot down 1 FW-190" specialists reply: "There is no this plane in our list of losses! If you can't give us name of pilot and number of plane, we can consider what your information is absolutely wrong". But what we see here - "10 or more, something near 20". We want to spit on these Mongols with their stupid pilots, their flying coffins and their false papers. :)

P.S.: Do you like diving? Possibly you can examine bottom of Kotka harbour...

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Christian W.
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Post by Christian W. » 07 Dec 2004 18:53

Hmm.... :|

Well, sorry, the wreck of Niobe is no longer there. She was raised after the war and Finnish goverment offered her to Dutch goverment but they didnt want her. She was eventually scrapped. Now Niobe lives only in photos.. :(

RoW
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Post by RoW » 07 Dec 2004 19:00

Christian W. wrote:Hmm.... :|

Well, sorry, the wreck of Niobe is no longer there. She was raised after the war and Finnish goverment offered her to Dutch goverment but they didnt want her. She was eventually scrapped. Now Niobe lives only in photos.. :(
I know, but I had in mind what you can find remains of planes...

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Harri
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Post by Harri » 08 Dec 2004 00:00

Salty sea water ruins aircraft wrecks very quickly althought the percentage of salt in that area is rather low. Shot down planes were usually also destroyed almost completely. Finding any remains is not very likely. More likely aircraft remains can be found somewhere from the thousands of lakes and marshes which preserve aircraft much better. Also on Russian side...

Additionally the harbour and passages have been dredged numerous times. Kotka is nowadays one of the biggest (2nd?) harbours in Finland.

-----

More info on Niobe (find he word "Niobe" from the page):
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... kAbt-R.htm

Flakkreutzer Niobe belonged to Marine-Flak-Abteilung 282 / Marine-Flak-Regiment 2. Commander of Marine-Flak-Abteilung 282 was Fregattenkapitän M.A. (= Marinen-Artillerie?) Werner Engel. Was he also the "Captain" or "Commander" of Niobe?

Technical information:
http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ ... index.html

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Christian W.
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Post by Christian W. » 08 Dec 2004 00:41

More detailed technical data from here.

http://home.wxs.nl/~jviss000/Gelderland.htm

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