AA-cruiser Niobe

Christian W. · Post by **Christian W.** » 14 Dec 2004 17:10

Niobe had armamnent to be effective and she was. She was also very strong ship as she took nine hits before she was hit twice below waterline causing her to sunk.

RoW · Post by **RoW** » 14 Dec 2004 18:08

Christian W. wrote:Niobe had armamnent to be effective and she was. She was also very strong ship as she took nine hits before she was hit twice below waterline causing her to sunk.

9 hits from 22 Pe-2 from 2000 m.??! I have big doubts. It would be the best percentage of precision for Soviet diving bombers in massive attacks during the war. It's too fine result even for Ju-87, taking into considaration rather small size of target... Where did you take this data?

Christian W. · Post by **Christian W.** » 14 Dec 2004 19:29

http://home.wxs.nl/~jviss000/Gelderland.htm

See the main page also http://home.wxs.nl/~jviss000/Default.htm

That site hasnt clearly been made by some person who has no idea what he is talking about.

And then of course this one.

http://rafiger.de/Homepage/Artgallery/Historic02.htm

Initial attack was by IL-2s (suppression?)followed by 3 separate Pe-2 diveattack waves, the last of which was a feint to draw attention from the 4 Havocs approaching low. Pe-2s scored two hits and Havocs scored the decisive two 1000kg hits below waterline sinking the ship to the bottom of the harbor.....

....taking nine hits before sinking....

RoW · Post by **RoW** » 14 Dec 2004 21:03

Christian W. wrote:http://home.wxs.nl/~jviss000/Gelderland.htm

See the main page also http://home.wxs.nl/~jviss000/Default.htm

That site hasnt clearly been made by some person who has no idea what he is talking about.

And then of course this one.

http://rafiger.de/Homepage/Artgallery/Historic02.htm

Initial attack was by IL-2s (suppression?)followed by 3 separate Pe-2 diveattack waves, the last of which was a feint to draw attention from the 4 Havocs approaching low. Pe-2s scored two hits and Havocs scored the decisive two 1000kg hits below waterline sinking the ship to the bottom of the harbor.....

....taking nine hits before sinking....

Again http://rafiger.de/Homepage/Artgallery/Historic02.htm ! It's too careless and superficial! About 9 "downed" planes I already wrote... What about 9 hits... In Russian sources I didn't see number greater than 2 hits from Pe-2. One hit was written on Rakov, for this he got his second Hero's Star.

Christian W. · Post by **Christian W.** » 14 Dec 2004 21:56

Did you even bother to visit this site? http://home.wxs.nl/~jviss000/Gelderland.htm

See the main page also http://home.wxs.nl/~jviss000/Default.htm

As you can see, its quite clear that the person who did it knows something.

RoW · Post by **RoW** » 14 Dec 2004 23:15

Christian W. wrote:Did you even bother to visit this site? http://home.wxs.nl/~jviss000/Gelderland.htm

See the main page also http://home.wxs.nl/~jviss000/Default.htm

As you can see, its quite clear that the person who did it knows something.

It's magnificent resource about the Dutch Navy, but I'm afraid what they didn't make clear in detail the fate of this ship, it's too minor importance for main themes of this side. I'll try to ask them about their sources...

RoW · Post by **RoW** » 15 Dec 2004 17:01

I got an answer in http://www.f16.parsimony.net/forum27947 ... s/5656.htm:

"As an answer to: Fate of Gelderland (Niobe)... written by RoW at 14 Dec 2004 23:21:38:

Good question. I wrote that particular page. IIRC, I got it from a friend of mine (Tiornu), who I believe also noted it in his book "Fleets of World War II"

>From http://home.wxs.nl/~jviss000/Gelderland.htm
>"...She proved to be a sturdy ship, shooting down nine aircraft and taking nine hits before sinking."
>I'm sorry, can I ask the source of this information?"

Hmm, this planet is very small...

Serg12 · Post by **Serg12** » 15 Dec 2004 17:28

Thus now necessary to ask Richard what it there in its book wrote. I hope he will appear on this forum with answer WHO is responsible for this terrible mess... LOL
Regards,
Serg

Serg12 · Post by **Serg12** » 15 Dec 2004 18:25

P.S. Did you know why number of shootdown aircrafts is equal to number of the hits? Russians used kamikaze tactics! Necessarily to add into all enumerated "reliable" sources.

Christian W. · Post by **Christian W.** » 18 Dec 2004 16:21

Stop being sarcastic..

Uninen · Post by **Uninen** » 24 Dec 2004 09:48

On Hannu Valtonen's "Lento-Osasto Kuhlmey" book theres actually no mention for the claims by any on 16071944, not even by AAA.. all Ilmavoimat, Luftwaffe and Soviets bombed each others that day. But no mention what so ever of anything shot down..

Mikko H. · Post by **Mikko H.** » 26 Dec 2004 18:59

According to Keskinen & Stenman's LeR series of books (which together, among other material, contain all the aerial victories claimed by the Finnish Air Force during the WWII) FAF fighters made five claims on 16 July 1944. However, none of these claims seems to be connected to the sinking of the Niobe.

Between 6.05 and 7.20 am two Me 109 G fighters (MT- 460 from HLeLv 24 and MT-402 from HLeLv 34 piloted by luutnantti K. Karhila and ylikersantti K. Tuomikoski respectively) claimed two Yak-9's from 14 GIAP over Vuosalmi in western Karelian Isthmus.

Around 1.10 pm a Brewster B-239 fighter (BW-384 from HLeLv 26 piloted by majuri L. Larjo) claimed a La-5 over Lemetti in northern Karelia.

Around 1.17 pm another Brewster B-239 fighter (BW-382 from HLeLv 26 piloted by vänrikki L. Linden) claimed another La-5 over Ruokojärvi.

Between 6.00 and 7.05 pm a Morane Saulnier fighter (MSv-631 from HLeLv 28 piloted by ylikersantti L. Hattinen) claimed a La-5 from 760 IAP over Urusjärvi.

I don't know where Ruokojärvi and Urusjärvi are, but they don't sound like places where aerial battles would take place when enemy has attacked Kotka accross the Gulf of Finland.

Topspeed · Post by **Topspeed** » 28 Dec 2004 20:43

Mikko I think you are right. Threre was no interception by FAF in concerning Niobe sinking. That is because the enermous attack on Karelian Isthmus had begun on 9th of June in 1944...all energy and forces were there. What ever the squadron had in and around Kotka was no more than a 2-3 me-109 g-2s at the time...and they were possibly on patrol or being refulled at the time of the attack..or it had been integrated to 24th squad by the time. I'll see to that.

gabriel pagliarani · Post by **gabriel pagliarani** » 23 Jan 2005 23:09

Topspeed wrote:Mikko I think you are right. Threre was no interception by FAF in concerning Niobe sinking. That is because the enermous attack on Karelian Isthmus had begun on 9th of June in 1944...all energy and forces were there. What ever the squadron had in and around Kotka was no more than a 2-3 me-109 g-2s at the time...and they were possibly on patrol or being refulled at the time of the attack..or it had been integrated to 24th squad by the time. I'll see to that.

Those G-2s were high ceiling recces, probably faintly armed with a couple of 7.7 only. Seen on TV not recently.

Harri · Post by **Harri** » 24 Jan 2005 00:14

gabriel pagliarani wrote:
Topspeed wrote:Mikko I think you are right. Threre was no interception by FAF in concerning Niobe sinking. That is because the enermous attack on Karelian Isthmus had begun on 9th of June in 1944...all energy and forces were there. What ever the squadron had in and around Kotka was no more than a 2-3 me-109 g-2s at the time...and they were possibly on patrol or being refulled at the time of the attack..or it had been integrated to 24th squad by the time. I'll see to that.
Those G-2s were high ceiling recces, probably faintly armed with a couple of 7.7 only. Seen on TV not recently.

G-2s had 20 mm cannon and 7.92 mm MGs while G-6s had 13 mm HMGs instead of the latter ones.

All possible planes stationed at Kymi airfield near Kotka about in mid July 1944 were Messerchmitt Bf 109G-2s of Fighter Squadron 28 (Detachment Sovelius) which was located at Utti, north from Kotka. It was another of the two Finnish fighter squadrons which used G-2s at that time (another was Fighter Squadron 24 at Lappeenranta). It was just converting from Morane-Saulniers to Messerschmitts and out of action at least partly. Field Flight Depot 1 at Utti airbase as well repaired damaged and equipped new arriving Messerschmitts for the Finnish Air Force.

2nd Flight / Fighter Squadron 30 (earlier and also later 2./Fighter Squadron 34) which was reformed at Malmi (Helsinki) and equipped with Bf 109G-6Y night-fighters around mid-July 1944 probably arrived in Kymi after the sinking of Niobe. The swarm of four planes subordinated earlier to Flying Squadron 34 (from Fighter Squadron 30) operated since 15.6.1944 from Immola and from ?.6.1944 onwards (after the arrival of German Detachment Kuhlmey) from Lappeenranta and Taipalsaari airfields.

Were there any Finnish fighters at Kymi airbase when the strike against Niobe took place? There is a book on Kymi airbase which would tell the missing dates. Have to check from this book...

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AA-cruiser Niobe

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