Siebel Ferries and MFPs

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Natter
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Re: Siebel Ferries and MFPs

Postby Natter » 19 Aug 2017 11:25

Nice photo of MFP's in Kopervik, Norway (1943).

Source: https://tidsmaskinen.no/ ( https://tidsmaskinen.no/p/58b828ab9546344a048b4997 )
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the Rocketman
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Re: Siebel Ferries and MFPs

Postby the Rocketman » 19 Aug 2017 13:02

Natter

Thanks for this interesting link, there are 3 other MFP pictures on this location on this site

Schermafbeelding 2017-08-19 om 13.43.59.png

Schermafbeelding 2017-08-19 om 13.45.36.png

Schermafbeelding 2017-08-19 om 13.46.12.png


Interesting site ther could be more MFP or German navy to be find here.

Greetings
From the Netherlands
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pey
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Re: Siebel Ferries and MFPs

Postby pey » 28 Oct 2017 18:19

Hallo to all!
Please excuse me this quite off-topic question:
Does anybody know about a book dealing with the traffic of supplies to Tunisia, German side?
I am trying to understand which boats and ferries took the Tigers of 504 in Tunisia, when, and from which harbour did they leave...
Do you think is that Possible?
I am trying to write the history of Panzer-Abteilung 504, and this is a question that remains open to me...

Thank you everybody!

Federico

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PT Dockyard
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Re: Siebel Ferries and MFPs

Postby PT Dockyard » 28 Oct 2017 18:27

I know a number went on the Italian Train ferry Aspromonte. I will dig up some pictures of them being loaded.


Also check out "The War Against Rommel's Supply Lines 1942-43" by Alan Levine

pey
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Re: Siebel Ferries and MFPs

Postby pey » 28 Oct 2017 18:52

Thank you PT Dockyard,

I have very much on the Tgier's side (pics and books), but I miss everything on the Navy side.

Regards
Federico

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the Rocketman
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Re: Siebel Ferries and MFPs

Postby the Rocketman » 29 Oct 2017 14:21

Frederico,

Take a look in the book "DerTiger" volume I Schwere Panzerabteilung 501 writen by Volker Ruff
There are some pictures and a list of the used MFP.

Greetings

Bert

pey
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Re: Siebel Ferries and MFPs

Postby pey » 29 Oct 2017 18:35

Thank you Rocketman, I'll give a look!

Federico

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PT Dockyard
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Re: Siebel Ferries and MFPs

Postby PT Dockyard » 29 Oct 2017 23:30

Check this thread:
https://forum.axishistory.com//viewtopic.php?t=76221

The images at the bottom are of Tigers being loaded on the Aspromonte

Image


Image

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jwsleser
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Re: Siebel Ferries and MFPs

Postby jwsleser » 30 Oct 2017 02:05

If the Tigers were transported on the Mn Aspromonte, it had to be on 22-23 November 1942. The Aspromonte sailed from Reggio at 1230hrs on the 22nd escorted by the destroyers Procione, Ciclone, Ardente, and Uragano. The convoy arrived at 1845 on the 23th at Biserta (Bizerte). The Aspromonte returned to Trapani 24-25 Novemeber. Aspromonte sailed again on the 1 December as part of Convoy H from Palermo. The convoy was intercepted by Force Q and the Aspromonte was hit by torpedoes from the Sirius and sank at 0129hrs on the 2nd. Source is La Difesa del traffico con l'Africa settentrionale dal 1 ottobre 1942 alla caduta della Tunisia (volume VIII of the Italian official naval history) pages 150-156 and appendice I.

Pista! Jeff
battaglione Alpini sciatori Monte Cervino (Reenacted)
5th Greek Regiment
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pey
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Re: Siebel Ferries and MFPs

Postby pey » 30 Oct 2017 07:26

Thank you very much, Jeff!
Unfortunately the first Tiger tank of 504 arrived in Sicily on 12th March. The second convoy of four Tigers arrived on 22nd March with MFPs. I have found a trace, but no specific information. We are closer to the end of the campaign, and it looks like in this period the studies are focused on the victory. At least too me it is harder to find precise info.
Thank you anyway and best regards.

Federico

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Re: Siebel Ferries and MFPs

Postby jwsleser » 30 Oct 2017 14:36

Federico

Agreed. As the Aspromonte was identified as a possible ship involved in moving Tigers, her loss in 1942 precludes any involvement with SchPzAbt 504.

The following is using the information found at Tiger Unit Histories . I have cross-referenced the dates for SchPzAbt 504 with the convoy records in the Italian naval history cited above.

From the data below, I would assume that the Tigers were likely transferred by Marinefährprahm rather than regular shipping. The movement dates of the Marinefährprahm better match the given dates/ports on the website and are the only shipping that matches the 16 April date. I haven't provided the data for the Italian motozattere as I felt these tanks would be transported on German vessels.

12 March - First 3 Tigers arrive. No convoys arrived on 12 March in Tunisia. A possible candidate are the K.T. 13 and K.T. 14 that sailed from Napoli on 6 March and arrived at Tunis on 8 March at 1620. The other option are the Mn Mario Roselli and Manzoni that sailed from Napoli on 12 March and arrived at Biserta on the 14th at 1640. I tend to favor the German ships as they were equipped to handle tanks and the Germans preferred to use their shipping whenever possible. The 8 March date would make the 12 March availability possible. Another point is that the Axis were only loading their ships to ~50% capacity to reduce losses if a ship was sunk. If by Marinefährprahm, one group of 5 Marinefährprahm departed Marsala on 11 March, arrived at Tunis on 12 March at 0700. The second group of 8 Marinefährprahm departed Trapani on 11 March and arrived at Tunis on 12 March at 0900.

22-23 March - 5 Tigers arrive at Bizerta. K.T. 5, K.t. 6, and K.T. 13 departed Palermo on 21 March and arrived at Tunis on 22 March at 1500. There was convoy of two Italian merchants at the same time, but feel the K.T.s are the more likely. If by Marinefährprahm, 4 Marinefährprahm depart Trapani on 21 March, arrive Biserta on 22 March at 0815. 4 Marinefährprahm depart Trapani on 22 March, arrive at Biserta on 23 March at 0835.

1 April - 2 Tigers arrive. Two options here. K.T. 5, K.T. 6, and K.T. 13 sail from Palermo on 30 March. K.T. 13 is lost to a mine, but K.T. 5 and K.T. 6 arrive at Tunis on 1 April at 2145. The other option is K.T. 7 and K.T. 9 that sail from Napoli on 30 March and arrive at Tunis on 1 April at 2145. I prefer the Napoli convoy as easier to get the Tigers to Napoli than Palermo. If by Marinefährprahm, there are three options: 3 Marinefährprahm from Trapani on 30 March, arrive Tunis 1 April at 1610. Two separate Marinefährprahm convoys from Marsala on 30 March (6 at 1500 and 3 at 1600), both arriving Tunis on 1 April at 1800.

16 April - 1 last Tiger to Bizerta. No convoys fit this date. 4 German Marinefährprahm did sail from Marsala on 15 April and arrived at Biserta on 16 April at 1140.

Pista! Jeff
battaglione Alpini sciatori Monte Cervino (Reenacted)
5th Greek Regiment
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pey
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Re: Siebel Ferries and MFPs

Postby pey » 30 Oct 2017 17:06

Jeff, you're great!
As the departure was reported as Trapani, it matches completely with the data you supply!
Now I'm at work, as soon as I get home I'll give you more info.

Thank you very much!
I knew you Marine guys had the key to this part of the story!

Best regards

Federico

pey
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Re: Siebel Ferries and MFPs

Postby pey » 31 Oct 2017 01:30

Well, I checked at home, the data are correct, the site Tiger Unit Histories has the same info I have.
I have downloaded the diary of the Navy Command Tunisia, there is the notice, for example, of 4 MFP going from Biserta to Tunis on March 22, 1943, they could be the same MFP that carried the Tigers. If you are interested, I can give you the address of the ftp server, or even send the diary via wetransfer. As far as I know, at least one Tiger landed at Karrouba naval base near Biserta.
Best Regards
Federico

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Re: Siebel Ferries and MFPs

Postby jwsleser » 31 Oct 2017 18:53

Federico

It is possible that those were part of the Marinefährprahm that transported the Tigers. The naval history doesn't cover coastal movements that only repositioned vessels (not moving cargo). The Tiger Unit Histories state 22-23 March for the arrival of five Tigers, so I am assuming that the tanks were moved in two convoys.

4 Marinefährprahm depart Trapani on 21 March, arrive Biserta on 22 March at 0815. 4 Marinefährprahm depart Trapani on 22 March, arrive at Biserta on 23 March at 0835.


I believe the Marinefährprahm that moved from Biserta to Tunis on 22 March were the first group. The second Marinefährprahm group which arrived on the 23rd at 0835hrs left on the 23rd at 1705hrs and arrived back at Trapani on 24 March at 1235hrs. No other Marinefährprahm departed Biserta for Trapani during late March.

Pista! Jeff
battaglione Alpini sciatori Monte Cervino (Reenacted)
5th Greek Regiment
9th reggimento bersaglieri

Dili
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Re: Siebel Ferries and MFPs

Postby Dili » 16 Dec 2017 16:56

Any MFP could take Tigers? i have read there were some "reinforced" MFP models for heavy loads.


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