Kriegsmarine shore bombardments against the WEST 1943-45

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Kriegsmarine except those dealing with the U-Boat forces.
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PT Dockyard
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Kriegsmarine shore bombardments against the WEST 1943-45

#1

Post by PT Dockyard » 15 May 2005, 13:28

There is a short history of the TA32, the large Ex-Yugoslavian destroyer used by the Germans in the Western Mediterranean, in MJ Whitley's "Destroyers of World War 2" and it had a one line statement that she conducted a shore bombardment in 1944.

I know that German destroyers from the 10th Flotilla bombarded Bastia, Corsica early in 1944 once or twice and I have a picture of a German AFP in Holland with "kill" markings for a Sherman tank and a British artillery piece.

The story of the Kriegsmarine's bombardments against the Russians is fairly well covered. Can anyone shed somelight on shore bombardment activities by German in the Mediterranean or the Channel 1943-44?

Dave G.

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#2

Post by OHara » 17 May 2005, 02:27

Hi Dave,

The 10th Torpedo-boat Flotilla operated out of La Spezia and Genoa. On 25 July 1944 TA24, TA28 and TA29 conducted operation "Panther" a shore bombardment between Marina di Pisa and Arno estuary in support of the German army. They fired 252 shells in seven minutes. They repeated their mission the next night, firing 340 shells in ten minutes and claiming a hit on an ammo dump.

On the night of 30/31 August TA24, TA29, TA31 and TA32 sailed from Genoa to attack the same area. TA31 developed rudder problems and had to return to base but the other three fired 206 shells in eight minutes. Allied planes harrassed them during the run in, but did no damage. These raids inspired a heavy USAAF raid on Genoa on 4 September that knocked out TA28 and TA33 (just then completing), but the 10th remained active up through March 1945. Their mines accounted for at least 13 Allied vessels and they fought two surface engagements with destroyer sized Allied warships and many more with coastal craft.

Vince


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#3

Post by PT Dockyard » 18 May 2005, 00:17

Vince,
Thanks. This is new to me. I have a copy of "Die Flotille" but my German is rudimentary at best.

Is the 10th covered in your book? My copy is on the way no from Amazon. :D

Dave G.

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#4

Post by OHara » 18 May 2005, 06:22

Dave,

There is a chapter covering actions in the Western Mediterranean from September 1943 through May 1945. The 10th Flotilla fought an engagement against USS Gleaves the night of 2 October 1944 and was destroyed by a pair of British destroyers in the battle of the Ligurian Sea on 18 March 1945. Germany fought an intense campaign in the Ligurian Sea during the last year of the war, most involving coastal units (the 10th Flotilla were the "capital ships" of this force).

Vince

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#5

Post by PT Dockyard » 19 May 2005, 03:19

Wow. Now I REALLY can't wait for it. I never knew these ships engaged a US DD.

You should do this as an article for World War II magazine.

Dave

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#6

Post by OHara » 19 May 2005, 18:59

What is really interesting about this engagement is that neither side knew what happened. The German SKL war diary entry for that date noted: “Torpedo Boats engagement off Imperia with probable French cruiser and large destroyer. Two hits were clearly observed on the opponents." The American captain, on the other hand, thought he engaged three merchant ships and sank two. He believed that the return fire (which missed) came from shore batteries. Much more exciting was the encounter later that night with Axis small battle units. Gleaves had several narrow escapes, sinking a couple boats and capturing one.

I'm attaching a map of this engagement that I scanned from German Fleet at War.

Vince
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#7

Post by redcoat » 19 May 2005, 23:54

OHara wrote:Dave,

The 10th Flotilla fought an engagement against USS Gleaves the night of 2 October 1944 and was destroyed by a pair of British destroyers in the battle of the Ligurian Sea on 18 March 1945.
The British destroyers HMS Meteor and HMS Lookout engaged two ex-Italian torpedo boats and a destroyer minelaying off the Gulf of Genoa.
In the last Royal Navy destroyer action of the Mediterranean, the torpedo boats "TA-24" and "TA-29" were sunk.

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#8

Post by PT Dockyard » 20 May 2005, 04:21

Vince,
Book came and it is great!

Dave

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Submarine Attack on a Oil Refinery?

#9

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 10 Jun 2007, 13:16

I'm searching for information on a possible uboat action.

Back around 1969 - 1972 I rember reading a description of a German submarine attacking a oil facility at a South American port. The artical was quite detailed, describing how a Kriegsmarine officer was authorized to execute a test project. A submarine was equipped a with a second deck gun of 10 or 10.5cm caliber and extra amunition for attacking shore installations. The target selected was a oil loading facility on the Venzuelian coast, which was suitable for a submarine to approach. ie. no narrow channels, broad shoals, and water deep enough neaby for a sub. to escape into.

On the first shot the supplementary deck gun suffered in inbore explosion. The attack was continued with the smaller standard deck gun. The attack was judged a failure and the idea of further attacks on shore installations dropped.

Later I saw a much less detailed remark on this same attack in a pop history book published in the mid 1970s.

Can anyone confirm, or offer contray evidence this attack actually occured, or point me to suitable sources for researching it?

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Re: Kriegsmarine shore bombardments against the WEST 1943-45

#10

Post by Simon K » 19 Jul 2008, 20:42

Hi there. First time user,first post. Respect to the high quality of knowledge and debate to be found here!
I think you a referring to a book published in 1961 by a French author, Leonce Peillard, "U Boats to the rescue," a good overview of the Laconia incident. In it, U156 and its previous career are briefly discussed.In the early hours of 16th-17th february 1942, U156 was in operation around Aruba island and Curacao, sinking one tanker with torpedoes. A shore bombardment was the initiated by U156 on the shore refinery instillations on Curacao. The 105mm fired one shot before it suffered a premature explosion,killing one memeber of the crew,and severely injuring another. Sounds like the same indident.

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Re: Kriegsmarine shore bombardments against the WEST 1943-45

#11

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 20 Jul 2008, 01:27

Simon..thanks. particulary for the book title & author. I've since identified the magazine artical as probablly appearing the the American Legion magazine cira 1970. The date was within two months or less of the Japanese shore bombardment of the US West coast by submarine. Not a lot of damage by either, but coupled with the desctuctive torpedo attacks on the US east coast they seem to have created a lot of 'concern'.

If you want to see the low quality knowledge and debate read the 'Waht If' board. More smoke than heat there, but a lot of fun.

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Re: Kriegsmarine shore bombardments against the WEST 1943-45

#12

Post by Simon K » 20 Jul 2008, 02:55

Thanks mate.

Ive been all over the place,my first hours as an "official" member. Lots of rows, enjoying a good one on "What the German soldier knew of atrocities" thread. But they are civilised,because we all know we are being peer reviewed. Civilised. And fun.

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Re: Kriegsmarine shore bombardments against the WEST 1943-45

#13

Post by Simon K » 20 Jul 2008, 03:05

Getting back to the U 156, there is no specific mention of a special mission,or any supplimentary personnel being on board, but an attempt to further capitalise on the earlier sinking. Interestingly, Peillard does mention that secondary (presumably AAA) armament was also used. I think the sub is a mk IXC which had a 105 mm and secondary 37mm AAA.

Simon K

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Re: Kriegsmarine shore bombardments against the WEST 1943-45

#14

Post by Simon K » 20 Jul 2008, 03:25

Stop press on that last post :idea: The book does mention Kaulein Hartensteins briefing to the crew before the engagement
Soon it will be time for action.it is our job to upset as far as possible the course of tankers between Venezuela and the islands of Aruba and Curacao, AND to attack the oil refineries - with our guns.Two other submarines are already in the area with my friends Muller and Von Rosenstiel. I will give you further details shortly.Till then it is forbidden to fire at ships, except at big armour and aircraft carriers. Now - I wish you all a good night.Dismiss.
L Peillard
U Boats to the rescue. Coronet Books 1976. P24

Sounds a bit cod I know, but Peillard did interview veterans and also the subject of the book is the Laconia, and not U boat tactics, so it sounds damn plauable it is recounting the same incident.

Cheers
Simon K

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Re: Kriegsmarine shore bombardments against the WEST 1943-45

#15

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 20 Jul 2008, 13:26

I'd judge so. The magazine artical was clear that this was a one time experiment by the Germans. So barring tricks of my memory all our sources must be refering to the same attack.

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