Plan Z

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Kriegsmarine except those dealing with the U-Boat forces.
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Terry Duncan
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Re: Plan Z

Post by Terry Duncan » 05 Jul 2017 10:09

I would be inclined to agree that very few hits are to be expected above 24,000 yards, which is why I questioned the figure of '15,5 percent' Thoddy had quoted. In theory, however, it is possible for Tirpitz to remain out of the range of Massachusetts and fire shells at her hoping to hit something vital before the ammunition runs out.

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Re: Plan Z

Post by Thoddy » 07 Aug 2017 13:26

the 15.5 percent hit propabilty describes the capabilities of the gun, -IF Target was straddled (MPI on target)-.

At 25 km the flighttime of the german 38 cm shell was in the order of 42 seconds, errors in the chain of target measurements, firing solution, inner ballistics, athmospheric conditions, maneuvering of the target ... are likely to make a straddle very diffucult. Even a one Sigma MPI rangescatter deviation may reduce the hit probability to about 1,5 to 2,5 percent.

And yes, the summation of difficulties at long range are likely to cause the magazines running out of ammo.

Fireeffect tables of Bismarck
http://forum-marinearchiv.de/coppermine ... %20Tir.PDF

In a fight one has to differenciate between different types of action (delaying and decisive action).
In the delaying action type Bismarck would likely choose the upper limit of the own outer immunity zone to keep hit % low and in an decisive action Bismarck would likely seek for a battle within the inner zone of immunity of the enemy.
"Meine Herren, es kann ein siebenjähriger, es kann ein dreißigjähriger Krieg werden – und wehe dem, der zuerst die Lunte in das Pulverfaß schleudert!"

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Re: Plan Z

Post by Thoddy » 17 Aug 2017 14:21

Only a silly question. Why Plan Z and not Plan X or A or C?
the naval command checked various alternatives, including X-Plan and Y-Plan.

the Z-Plan became valid per 12/1938 - based on the actual shipbuilding and supplier(armor, weapons,equipment) capacities of Germany
"Meine Herren, es kann ein siebenjähriger, es kann ein dreißigjähriger Krieg werden – und wehe dem, der zuerst die Lunte in das Pulverfaß schleudert!"

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Re: Plan Z

Post by EPOCH3 » 14 Jun 2018 16:53

Hi - I am mostly an artillery type guy always looking for original data that I can use for modeling purposes. In my searching, I bought a small cache of drawings and photos many years ago from the estate of a Herr Witte who was a building director for the German Navy destroyer programs in WWII. While there was not much related specifically to artillery in the collection, there were quite a few large original plan drawings (Ink on Linen) of a German naval vessel that I am trying to identify -its become more of a challenge than I first thought..

The original documents included in the collection originally lead me to believe they are plans to the Z plan Destroyer design 1938 B
but after researching the material (specifications) and trying to match it to a known vessel type, I now think it might (???) be something related to a Spähkreuzer/Scout Cruiser design.

From the blueprints/drawings it looks like the vessel has the following equipment compliment:
Qty 9 15cm sk/l guns in three turrets
Qty 4 8.8cm guns
has ammo storage for 5cm and 3.7cm (presumably for AA/Flak weapons)
Qty 4 x3 (total of 12 tubes) torpedo tube/launchers
Qty 2 float planes (looks like He-60s vs Arados)

On the surface, most of that all looks much like a light cruiser design but then the drawings show that it has 1 stack, 4 larger and 2 small diesels (no steam turbines) and two shafts.

Attached is a snippet from one of the drawings with weights and measures....

Just wondering if anyone with more knowledge of German ship designs can weigh in with any ideas?
Thought I would post here since it seems the material is late 1930s design which puts it right in there with Z plan timelime but feel free to repost anywhere else that might be a better fit.

Thanks in advance and regards
Greg
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Peter K.
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Re: Plan Z

Post by Peter K. » 14 Jun 2018 18:41

Hello GREG!
I think that estate of Helmuth WITTE was also offered to me some times ago and I saw some poor pics of it too. Despite there were some really interesting items included (f.e. Handakte Witte Privat-Dienstliches and cruiser plan), the price was unacceptable high for me. In my opinion the cruiser is very similar to NÜRNBERG with the exception of the machinery, which consists of diesel engines - 8 main engines with 4 smaller auxilliary engines working on 2 shafts. Moreover there were 2 more diesel engines. Noticeable were the use of the unsuccessable 8,8 cm C/25 AA guns.
So in my option this plan shows only a cruiser project, not for the Z-plan but perhaps prepared as an alternate for NÜRNBERG.
I would highly appreciate it, if you could send me some clear pics of the plan, especially from the machinery. Also the exact content of the "Handakte Witte Privat-Dienstliches" would be great to know for me.
Greetings from Austria
Peter K.

EPOCH3
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Re: Plan Z

Post by EPOCH3 » 14 Jun 2018 20:00

Thanks, I'll see about getting some acceptable scans put together. I asked a few friends to see if they knew anyone interested in buying/trading the collection so perhaps you heard from one of them. I bought them about 15 years ago just to look at and to see if they had anything artillery related. There were hundreds of photos and documents with the drawing group but nothing detailed enough for my interest in artillery etc. .

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Re: Plan Z

Post by EPOCH3 » 14 Jun 2018 20:16

As a note regarding Herr Witte. Most of the documents are his archives material relating to being blamed for the Z38B being over weight. He defends himself against those blaming him and points out where "they" went wrong with several calculations and sketches and the superiors side with him. The photo albums show him basically moving around from various shipyards as the war progressed. He survived the war and later died of cancer. I always thought the large drawings might have been related to the overweight discussion which is why I thought maybe Z38B (that very little is known about) but you may be entirely correct that they are something totally different. Thanks

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Re: Plan Z

Post by EPOCH3 » 14 Jun 2018 20:48

hello, an update - I was looking through the material again and found another drawing that appears to show that there were two power configurations being considered. One, clearly was based on a steam turbine/diesel combination. A more detailed drawing however has only the diesels.

I also included a quick snippet from one of the more simple drawings showing what the general profile looked like of the vessel in question.
Regards
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Peter K.
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Re: Plan Z

Post by Peter K. » 14 Jun 2018 23:36

Hello again, GREG!
It´s easily possible, that I heard about this estate from one of my polish friends, I really can´t remember exactly.
I would be highly interested in the destoyer calculations of Mr. WITTE about the small Z 38 B - project, but the plan clearly show a cruiser similar to NÜRNBERG. Thanks for the sketch with both power configuration. I assume the use of the same diesel engine type, which the pocket battleships got - the MAN MZ42/58. The main engines would be a 10 cyl - version and the smaller cruising engines a 6 cyl - version. Nevertheless an interesting power configuration!
Regards Peter K.

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Re: Plan Z

Post by EPOCH3 » 15 Jun 2018 00:12

thanks much -

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Re: Plan Z

Post by EPOCH3 » 15 Jun 2018 00:13

I forgot to mention that I do think the detailed drawings show 10 cylinder diesels but check when I get a moment- thx again

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