Plan Z

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Kriegsmarine except those dealing with the U-Boat forces.
nebelwerferXXX
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Re: Plan Z

Post by nebelwerferXXX » 03 Sep 2010 07:06

Plan Z: the RM 33-billion shipbuilding program...
Partial estimates:
6 x 56,000-ton H-Class battleships @ RM 240-million per ship = RM 1,440,000,000
2 x 42,000-ton Bismarck-Class battleships @ RM 200-million per ship = RM 400,000,000

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Baltasar
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Re: Plan Z

Post by Baltasar » 03 Sep 2010 15:44

That'd be a nother 33 billion RM wasted for no gain at all. The whole surface fleet was a waste of men and material. They should've stuck to costal boats for patrol, escort and mine laying operations and leave the fighting to the subs. Should've given them maritime patrol aircrafts, though.

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Re: Plan Z

Post by nebelwerferXXX » 04 Sep 2010 15:21

The Z-plan schedule of work program:

The 1941 Program:
---2 x 30,000-ton aircraft carriers...60,000 tons

The 1943 Program:
---4 x 10,000-ton heavy cruisers...40,000 tons OR
---128 x 750-ton submarines...96,000 tons

The 1944 Program:
---6 x 56,000-ton battleships...336,000 tons
---cost: RM 1,443,000,000...equivalent to 2,232 Tiger tanks for export to Japan

The 1947 Program:
---2 x 30,000-ton aircraft carriers...60,000 tons
---95 x 750-ton submarines...71,250 tons

The 1948 Program:
---4 x 10,000-ton heavy cruisers...40,000 tons

Cost: RM 33-billion
Crew: 201,000
Fuel: 8,000,000 tons

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Baltasar
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Re: Plan Z

Post by Baltasar » 05 Sep 2010 10:56

The Plan was useless, full stop.

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Re: Plan Z

Post by nebelwerferXXX » 05 Sep 2010 11:09

Baltasar wrote:The Plan was useless, full stop.

So, by now the Plan Z discussion is a useless/obsolete topic by now. Is that what you mean Sir?

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Baltasar
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Re: Plan Z

Post by Baltasar » 05 Sep 2010 21:00

Yes, it is. The Plan Z was a dead end. All it could have achieved was having Germany being defeated a little faster. They did not have the luxury to divert substantial resources to a fleet they would hardly be able to use.

Having a look at the location of Germany in Europe, she needed to field a substantial land army, aided by an adequate air force. The surface arm of the navy would have to wait until a situation was created where Nazi Germany had the time and surplus resources to spend on said arm.

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Re: Plan Z

Post by nebelwerferXXX » 12 Sep 2010 05:18

Rejected German Plans:
1) Plan X...What's the composition of the fleet?
2) Plan Y...What's the composition of the fleet?

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Re: Plan Z

Post by nebelwerferXXX » 12 Sep 2010 06:20

Hello...If I were only to speculate a good guess for the composition of the plans, it's like this...

Plan X Fleet: smaller ships
---50 x 13,900-ton Adm Hipper-Class heavy cruisers
---50 x 6,980-ton K-Class light cruisers
---300 x 2,225-ton Type 34-Class destroyers
---300 x 844-ton T-Class torpedo boats
---1,000 x 750-ton Type VII U-boats
---10 x 10,000-ton supply tankers

Plan Y Fleet: capital ships
---7 x 41,700-ton Bismarck-Class battleships
---7 x 31,850-ton Scharnhorst-Class battleships
---24 x 23,000-ton Graf Zeppelin-Class aircraft carriers

These were only my personal perspective/opinion. I can only imagine/dream how strong the German Navy if's not a neglected service then. Correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks...

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Re: Plan Z

Post by mescal » 12 Sep 2010 17:28

From memory (so take it with a grain of salt), the X Plan was a sketchy study giving thr requirements to take on the RN.

Plan Y was a downsized Plan X which could be envisionned - if KM got the lion's share of the rearmament budgets.

Plan Z was an evolution of Plan Y; IIRC the changes were made mainly because of tactical & operational reasons, and not for budgetary reasons.
Olivier

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Re: Plan Z

Post by nebelwerferXXX » 23 Sep 2010 12:20

An Analysis: German shipyard capabilities for Plan Z:

Hamburg: Blohm and Voss
Slip 7: 690 ft x 90 ft = PS-2
Slip 8: 770 ft x 85 ft = SS Vaterland, PS-5 and PS-11
Slip 9: 900 ft x 120 ft = Hipper, Bismarck and battleship 'H'
Dry Dock 'Elbe 17': 1,150 ft x 130 ft = battleship 'M'
______________________________
A total of 8 ships in 9 years...3 battleships, 1 heavy cruiser, 3 armored cruisers and 1 steamship.

Bismarck: 823 ft x 118 ft, was suited to a 900 ft x 120 ft slipway as described above.

The shipbuilding industry of Germany cannot even match the RN and USN.

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Re: Plan Z

Post by bf109 emil » 24 Sep 2010 23:57

Bismarck: 823 ft x 118 ft, was suited to a 900 ft x 120 ft slipway as described above.

The shipbuilding industry of Germany cannot even match the RN and USN.
ya think as the Bismarck needed 2 1/2 years to build, and the plan z called for 7 such size ships to be built in only 2 slipways?
http://www.kbismarck.com/genedata.html as the Bismarck was build at Blohm & Voß, Hamburg and Tirpitz was built at Kriegsmarinewerft, Wilhelmshaven...both needing roughly 2 1/2 years each to coplete and another year to become operational

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Re: Plan Z

Post by nebelwerferXXX » 22 Oct 2010 12:27

Evolution of the Plan Z:
Plan Z first version: capital ships
Plan Z second version: smaller ships
Plan Z final version: capital ships and smaller ships combined

Recommending Approval: Grand Adm. Raeder
Approved: The Fuhrer Adolf Hitler
Canceled: 1939
Last edited by nebelwerferXXX on 23 Oct 2010 01:44, edited 2 times in total.

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mescal
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Re: Plan Z

Post by mescal » 22 Oct 2010 13:29

What are the dates at which each of these evolution was approved ? and who approved them ?

What source does it come from ?
Olivier

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Re: Plan Z

Post by nebelwerferXXX » 25 Oct 2010 03:29

nebelwerferXXX wrote:Evolution of the Plan Z:
Plan Z first version: capital ships
Plan Z second version: smaller ships
Plan Z final version: capital ships and smaller ships combined

Recommending Approval: Grand Adm. Erich Raeder
Approved: The Fuhrer Adolf Hitler
Canceled: 1939
Just to give more detail to the above statement is here.

Evolution of the German 'Z-Plan': First preliminary study:

Part I: German 'Z-Plan' capital ships: The core of the 'Z-Plan'
(a) Six battleships of 56,000 tons...............................................336,000 tons...1.443-billion RM
(b) Two battleships (Bismarck and Tirpitz) of 42,000 tons....................84,000 tons...400-million RM
(c) Three pocket-battleships of 31,000 tons, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau...93,000 tons

(d) Three pocket-battleships (Deutschland, Admiral Scheer and Graf Spee)
(e) Two aircraft-carriers (Graf Zeppelin, launched in 1938, plus one other)
______________________________________________________________
Total: 16 ships

Part II: German 'Z-Plan' smaller ships:
(1) Five heavy cruisers (Hipper, Blucher, Prinz Eugen, Seydlitz and Lutzow)
(2) 44 light cruisers (of which 6 were already completed)
(3) 68 destroyers and 90 torpedo-boats
(4) Some 249 U-boats-coastal, sea-going, and ocean-going
_____________________________________________________________
Total: 456 ships

Final study: German 'Z-Plan' the combination of the capital and smaller ships:

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Re: Plan Z

Post by nebelwerferXXX » 25 Oct 2010 04:03

nebelwerferXXX wrote:The core of the Plan Z was 512,000 tons of steel.
To convert these ships into U-boats:
6 H-Class battleships, Bismarck, Tirpitz and 5 heavy cruisers = 300 more U-boats

To convert the H-44 Schwerschalchtshiff can create:
1) 8 more 508-mm super railway guns
2) 5,660 more Panzer Mark IV tanks

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