The Schnellebootewaffe And MAS Boats--General Discussion

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Kriegsmarine except those dealing with the U-Boat forces.
Kirill
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Post by Kirill » 07 Dec 2005 16:05

[quote="Davide Pastore"]That site does [u]NOT[/u] contain :? any reference to the soviet gunboat Bira (947tons) sunk by MAS 527 on 15 August 1942. Another 1,300ton civilian ship was sunk by MAS 528 on an unspecified date.Davide[/quote]

Davide, it's mistakes (presumably taken by Italian author from the old book by a Swiss historian Jurg Meister "Der Seekrieg in den Osteuropaischen Gewassern 1941-1945").

MAS 527 on 15.08.1942 unsuccessfully attacked soviet gunboats "Nora", "Selemdzha" and patrol boats MO No. 199, No. 202 and No. 209. One sailor on the "Selemdzha" was wounded by the machine gun fire from MAS 527.

MAS 528 reported 1 lighter (1300 grt), towed by 3 tugs, sunk by torpedo in the night on 28th August 1942. In reality MAS 528 attacked soviet gunboat "Sheksna" (torpedo missed), which reported about the fight without results with 2 enemy boats.

The Italian MAS didn't sunk or seriously damaged any Soviet ships on Ladoga.

Thank you very much for your photos.

Best regards from Russia,
Kirill

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Davide Pastore
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Post by Davide Pastore » 07 Dec 2005 17:11

Kirill wrote: The Italian MAS didn't sunk or seriously damaged any Soviet ships on Ladoga.
Oo. :cry:

Davide

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Davide Pastore
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Post by Davide Pastore » 07 Dec 2005 17:48

David C. Clarke wrote:Well good, now that we're past that, the pictures seem like a perfect opportunity to take a look at Schnelleboote and MAS-Boat activity in the Black Sea.
This is a brief summary for the Italian boats:

Italian MTB in the Black Sea

4ª Flottiglia Mas (C.F. Francesco Mimbelli)
- 18ª Squadriglia Mas (T.V. De Giorgi)
- - Mas 566 - from 19 July 42 - - - transferred to Kriegsmarine 20 May 43
- - Mas 567 - ditto - - - - - - - - - - ditto
- - Mas 568 - from 30 June 42 - - - ditto
- - Mas 569 - ditto - - - - - - - - - - ditto
- 19ª Squadriglia Mas (C.C. Castagnacci, T.V. Freschi)
- - Mas 570 - from 23 May 42 - - - ditto
- - Mas 571 - ditto - - - - - - - - - - sunk by air bombing 09 Sep 42
- - Mas 572 - ditto - - - - - - - - - - sunk by collision 12 May 1943
- - Mas 573 - ditto - - - - - - - - - - sunk by air bombing 09 Sep 42
- - Mas 574 - from October 1942 - transferred to Kriegsmarine 20 May 43
- - Mas 575 - ditto - - - - - - - - - - ditto
- 101ª Squadriglia Mezzi Speciali
- - MTSM 204 - from May 1942 - - returned in Italy 16 Mar 43
- - MTSM 206 - ditto - - - - - - - - - ditto
- - MTSM 208 - ditto - - - - - - - - - ditto
- - MTSM 210 - ditto - - - - - - - - - ditto
- - MTSM 216 - ditto - - - - - - - - - ditto
- - 5x MTM - ditto - - - - - - - - - - - ditto (all but MTM 80, expended 28 June 42)

The two boats sunk on 09 Sep 42 were hit during an air raid over Yalta which hit just hours after Admiral Doenitz had reviewed Italian and Germans crews. Mas 567, 569 and 572 were also damaged.

- Mas = Motoscafo Armato Silurante (28t, 43kts, crew 10, 2x 450 torpedoes, 1x 20/65, 6x 50kg ASW bombs
- MTSM = Motoscafo Turismo Silurante Modificato (3t, 32-34kts, crew 2, 1x 450 torpedo, 2x 50kg ASW bombs)
- MTM = Motoscafo Turismo Modificato (1t, 33kts, crew 1, 300kg warhead)

The 50kg ASW bombs were to be used against ships, to be dropped alongside the enemy's hull.
MTSM dropped its torpedo from a rearward cradle, aiming the boat against the target.
MTM was the "Barchino Esplosivo" (same type as those sinking HMS York in Suda Bay).

During fall 1942 the boats were ready to be shipped to Caspian Sea, had the Axis established a foothold along its coasts. The plan was cancelled on 09 Oct 42.
On 20 May 43 the surviving boats were transferred to Germany as S-501 to 507 (then to Romania in August 1943).

Successes of Italian boats (according to Italian sources!!! To be verified... :) ):
- 13 Jun 42 - MTSM 210 crippled the cargo ship Gruziya (4854grt) off Sevastopol, subsequently finished by Luftwaffe
- 19 Jun 42 - Mas 571 sank the submarine Shch 214 off Yalta
- 28 Jun 42 - MTM 80 expended against coastal defences near Balaklava
- 03 Aug 42 - Mas 573 severely damaged the cruiser Molotov off Feodosia (she lost 20m of stern, and subsequently received the stern section of the incomplete Frunze).
- 06 Sep 42 - Mas 568 damaged a cargo ship near Cape Utrisc

There were also six very small submarines (taken over by Romania after 9 Sep 43).

I have a number of photos and profiles, but they are just "normal" photos and profiles (i.e., a boat in the water, and such - nothing of comparable to passing into a road tunnel.). Do you want me to post them?

Davide

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Erich
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Post by Erich » 08 Dec 2005 05:05

David I can check my sources of course but do you want all the victories listed in the Baltic ? ....... I do not want to go off=topic with whqt looks like an interesting thread covering Italien activities and fine fotos at the present ....

Torpedos los !
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Davide Pastore
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Post by Davide Pastore » 08 Dec 2005 07:25

Erich wrote:I do not want to go off=topic
Well, actually the off-topic had been started by me, since by definition a Mas or Ms is not a Schnellboot!

Davide

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Post by Jan-Hendrik » 08 Dec 2005 11:58

But , i must admitt that such a list would be very interesting , dear Erich !

Jan-Hendrik

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Post by Kirill » 08 Dec 2005 13:08

[quote="Davide Pastore"]Well good, now that we're past that, the pictures seem like a perfect opportunity to take a look at Schnelleboote and MAS-Boat activity in the Black Sea.

Successes of Italian boats (according to Italian sources!!! To be verified... :) ):
- 13 Jun 42 - MTSM 210 crippled the cargo ship Gruziya (4854grt) off Sevastopol, subsequently finished by Luftwaffe
- 19 Jun 42 - Mas 571 sank the submarine Shch 214 off Yalta
- 28 Jun 42 - MTM 80 expended against coastal defences near Balaklava
- 03 Aug 42 - Mas 573 severely damaged the cruiser Molotov off Feodosia (she lost 20m of stern, and subsequently received the stern section of the incomplete Frunze).
- 06 Sep 42 - Mas 568 damaged a cargo ship near Cape Utrisc

Davide[/quote]

Hello Davide,

According to Russian sources:

1) Attack by MTSM 210 (in the evening of 12 June) was unsuccessful, "Gruziya" was sunk early in the morning 13 June by german aircraft at Sevastopol harbour.

2) 19 June 1942 Shch 214 sunk by MAS 571 - confirmed.

3) 3 Aug 1942 at 01.26 "Molotov" was damaged by a german torpedoplane from 6./KG26. Earlier attacks by MAS 568 and MAS 573 were unsuccessful.

4) According to Meister 5 Sep 1942 at 03.13 MAS 568 attacked and sunk a steamer (3000 grt), moored near Utrish Cape.

Modern russian naval historian Miroslav Morozov wrote in comments to Meister work: "No data in Soviet sources. It's probable that a small coastal ship, participating in evacuation of soviet troops from Taman' peninsula, was sunk".

Best regards,
Kirill

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Erich
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Post by Erich » 08 Dec 2005 16:37

Gentlemen I of course can add with claims by the KM Schnellboote but since we are at this time offering a wealth of information concerning Baltic victories and especially the Black Sea, may I ask a good map be posted that we can possibly plot the areas of engagements ?

I'll be back ............
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David C. Clarke
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Post by David C. Clarke » 08 Dec 2005 21:47

Hey Guys, this is a general schnelleboat discussion--I don't think that much of anything is off-topic, as long as the boat was small, fast and carried torpedoes (which naturally includes MAS Boats!).


Best,
David

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David C. Clarke
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Post by David C. Clarke » 09 Dec 2005 21:46

Schnelleboote Books!!!

Hi Guys! Just got a minor shipment of books yesterday, which provoked me to look again at my reference material on Schneelbootes. So, a quick look at some of the titles:

Warship Profile #31 German Schnelleboote by Dr. G Hümmelchen, 1973. This is the granddaddy of all photo-essay Schnelleboote booklets. 23 pages, black and white with a four-page color foldout in the center. Despite it's age, the text holds up very well and the photographs are excellent. It still pops up at reasonable prices on Ebay.

S-Boote, German E-Boats in Action, by Jean Philippe Dallies-Labourdette, Histoire&Collections, 2003. A big format, hardcover, color and B&W photo-collection with essays covering the history of the S-boote and it's deployment. This title goes for around $35 USd or less. One of the recent and much ignored developmenst is the emergence of Histoire & Collections, a French Company as a major publisher of works on the German Armed Forces. This book, very nicely produced and laid out, is a really handy overview of the S-Boote and its operations. 176 pages. The only complaint I have is that the translation lacks precision and there are a certain number of clearly typographical errors, which can make the reader doubt parts of the text. But, overall, it is reasonably priced for what you get.

Osprey New Vanguard #59, German E-boats 1939-1945 by Gordon Williamson. 48 pages, color plates--the usual Osprey treatment. Toss photos and an essay into an attractive package and add color plates. IMHO, not quite as good as the Warship Profile above, but not bad either. Love the center S-Boote cutaway drawn by Ian Palmer, so I recommend it. Also, it is rather cheap on Amazon.

Warship Pictorial #15, Kriegsmarine Schnelleboote by Steve Wiper, Classic Warships Publications, 2001. 72 Pages, black and white but including 6 pages of color photos and a centerfold of color drawings illustrating paint schemes. Steve Wiper, as usual, does a wonderful job with the format pioneered by Squadron's "In Action" series and it is interesting to contrast this book with the next item. Suffice it to say that the price is reasonable, the photo reproduction is top-notch and the book includes line drawings of various equipment items. A good buy!

Schnelleboot in Action Warship Number 18, Squadron/Signal publications, 2003. By T. Garth Connelly and David L. Krakow. 57 pages total, black and white, with a 2 page color centerfold of paint schemes. Normally a Squadron "in Action" wouldn't be much competition to a Warship Pictorial in terms of photo content and excellence of production values. This is quite the exception to that rule. The photo captions and text are also very informative. My advice--don't make the choice between the Squadron and the Classic Warship books. Both are superb and complement each other, the Classic Warship book is slightly more expensive (but with more pages). While some photographs are duplicated, the majority aren't, so buy both and you'll have a nice photo collection on the schnelleboote!

Well, that's it for now. Next time, hardcover books that focus on campaigns involving th Schnelleboote


Best,
David

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Erich
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Post by Erich » 09 Dec 2005 23:18

David throw the Osprey title away please ......... the squadron signal book is the best soft-bound you can buy for the monies as well as the long OOP Hümmelchen title

hard back let me be of assistance to the ever growing hopeful titles......also with a few more soft-bound goodies.....

Besidies the French edition S-boot 39-45,

I would recommend the following:

Gerhard Hümmelchen's "Die Deutschen Schnellboote im Zweiten Weltkrieg" OOP, it is the classic that others need to stand up to.

Hugo Bürgers "Schnellboote vor !" a 1941 vintage covering a Flottilla's inovlement in Finnish waters.

Volkmar Kühn's "Schnellboote"

James Tents "E-boat alert"

SOS titles Schnellboote vor !, Schwarze Nächte im Schwarzen Meer-S 42, same title this is about I. S-Boot-Flottille

DK im Gold winner Gerhard Behrens "Die Geschichte Der 1. Schnellbootsflottille 1931-1945" in Bildern, Kiel 1986

just a few David .... there are more



8)

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David C. Clarke
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Post by David C. Clarke » 09 Dec 2005 23:26

Hi Erich, good to hear from you!

Which of the German books would you right as the best on technical details of the Schnellebootes, including line drawings, plans and that sort of thing?

Best,
David

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Erich
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Post by Erich » 09 Dec 2005 23:34

Jan-Hendrik mentioned it on page 1. Harold Focks history which used to be in two volumes now a single. hard to find in English though.....I do not have a copy ..... yet

also here is something that needs to be checked out closely and I am wishing to do so next spring. Freiburg Archiv for :

RM listings are quite lengthy there but would be an excellent source to the Kriegstagebuchs offered such as... 8. Schnellbootflottille: 18.11.41-23.1.45, the itme is broken up into sectional dates of service on different theaters BA/MA RM 59/57-60

this is just one example as well as covering the 1,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,24 S-boot Flottille's and the 1st S-boot division RM 59/1

many of the war day books just cover several months of notations

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Victor
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Post by Victor » 10 Dec 2005 08:42

Davide Pastore wrote: There were also six very small submarines (taken over by Romania after 9 Sep 43).
Actually only five were taken by the Romanian Royal Navy. One had been previously sunk. Out of these just two were made operational by July 1944 and one was sunk by the VVS-ChF.

Also in the Black Sea was operating the 1. Sb Flotille: S-26, S-27, S-28, S-40, S-42, S-45, S-47, S-49, S-51, S-52, S-72, S-131 and S-148 boats.

The first reported success was on 10 August 1942, by S-102 that reported the sinking of an enemy ship near Tuapse. The following night S-102 and S-28 failed in the night attack on several tankers between Tuapse and Novorosyisk. The two boats had more success on 31 August, when S-102 sunk one tanker and the S-28 the 1,988 ton cargoship Ian Tromp.

During the evacuation of the Taman Penisula, in the nights of 2, 3 and 5 September 1942, four MTBs raided the Soviet fleet (S-102, S-28, S-27 and S-72) and reported 19 successes, mostly small ships. On 5 September, S-27 sank following an accident with one of its torpedoes.

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Post by Kirill » 10 Dec 2005 12:36

Victor,

The first success of 1 S-boote flotille came on 19 June 1942 (it was their first operation) when S-27, S-72 and S-102 attacked soviet hospital ship "Belostok" (2048 grt), escorted by the minesweeper "Yakor" and 5 MO-cutters. "Belostok" was sunk by S-102.

Overview of S-boote actions in Black Sea and a list of Russian losses (scroll down to the end of the page) you can find here -

http://wunderwaffe.narod.ru/Magazine/MK/1999_02/10.htm (In Russian)

Baltic Sea - http://wunderwaffe.narod.ru/Magazine/MK/1999_02/08.htm

Best regards,
Kirill

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