The Schnellebootewaffe And MAS Boats--General Discussion

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Kriegsmarine except those dealing with the U-Boat forces.
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Erich
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Post by Erich » 30 Dec 2005 03:13

The Komet, Kormoran und Michel were equipped with the Leichte-Schnellboote

LS-2 in the Komet
LS-3 in the Kormoran
LS-4 in the Michel

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Xavier
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Post by Xavier » 30 Dec 2005 18:39

mmm interesting, according to Schnellboot in action LS-4 was the first boat to have the original torpedo tubes instaled.

Komet's and Kormoran's Leite-Schnellboote didn't have the torpedo gear installed and that resulted in their use as high-speed clandestine minelayers. the booklet contains several pics of Meteorit (LS-2 Komet's own LS) but not a single pic of one LS with the armoured turret, like the ones posted here..thanks a lot!!!

does anyone know of a 1/72 model of the LS boats?

Xavier
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varjag
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Post by varjag » 31 Dec 2005 07:28

Xavier wrote:mmm interesting, according to Schnellboot in action LS-4 was the first boat to have the original torpedo tubes instaled.

Komet's and Kormoran's Leite-Schnellboote didn't have the torpedo gear installed and that resulted in their use as high-speed clandestine minelayers. the booklet contains several pics of Meteorit (LS-2 Komet's own LS) but not a single pic of one LS with the armoured turret, like the ones posted here..thanks a lot!!!

does anyone know of a 1/72 model of the LS boats?

Xavier
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Seems LS 6,7,8,9,10 & 11 belonged to the 21st Schnellboote Flotille based in Corfu and later Pireaus in 1944, rgds. Varjag

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Davide Pastore
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Post by Davide Pastore » 09 Jan 2006 14:27

Researching U-boote for a different thread I came upon this reference to the same (apparently) small MTBs, to be carried on board the Type III Uboat (project cancelled). These MTBs are reported as 10ton heavy and 12.5m long. The sub (Type III, then MVBVII) had also 48 mines (seen under the rear MTB).

The same book (E. Rössler, Italian version of Geschichte der deutschen Ubootbaus, 1975-1193) also show a most extraordinary "semi-submersible" MTB, apparently built in 1940-41 and tried for some time before being abandoned.

Davide
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Davide Pastore
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Post by Davide Pastore » 09 Jan 2006 14:35

And another source shows some experimental German hydrofoils.
VS8 was a transport boat (one 20t tank, plus 4x 15mm MG) and VS10 a combat one (2x 533mm TT, 6x 20mm MG)

Davide
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Ome_Joop
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Post by Ome_Joop » 09 Jan 2006 19:19

http://engelmann.untersee-boote.de/eboot.html

I ve seen more pics of that VS5 somewhere...

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PT Dockyard
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Post by PT Dockyard » 28 Jan 2006 01:28

"The Italian MAS didn't sunk or seriously damaged any Soviet ships on Ladoga. "

I don't think this is true. Both the Soviets anf Finns credit them with a Moscow class gunboat and at least one cargo barge. From one site:

"On Ladoga Lake was operative the 12th Mas Squadron (units N.527 e 528) commanded by capitano di corvetta Bianchini. The crafts were transported from La Spezia to the coast of this great lake, situated north of St. Petersburg, by a truck column that made more than 3.100 kilometers in 26 days. In August, the 15th, 1942, the two Italian torpedo motorboats began their brilliant also if limited activity with the sinking, made by Mas 527 commanded by tenente di vascello Renato Bechi, of a Soviet gunboat of the "Bira" class. The 28th August also Mas 528 sank an enemy unit: a large "maona" with a displacement of more than 1.000 tons, loaded with soldiers. The 29th September the two Italian Mas tried to torpedo a Russian armed motorbarge and in October, the 22th, a few days before the lake's glaciation, they had their last battle, attacking with torpedoes and machine guns three enemy gunboats near. In November, the two Mas were given to Finland Navy and the crews returned in Italy."

http://www.regiamarina.it/blacksea.htm

And a site on the Finnish Navy...

"The losses at Suho ended naval operations in Laatokka. The winter was coming, and so it was necessary to move MAS and KM boats back to Gulf of Finland via Saimaa. The ferries and KM boats had so much machinery problems, that their use was no more reasonably in 1942. The Italian boats were moved to Helsinki 27-30 October and later to Tallinn. The KM boats were transported 23-25 October to Lahdenpohja and away 30 October. The ferries were tranported by rail and the last of these left 30 November. The Finns bought heavy artillery ferry 17, transport ferry T 2, and four infantry boats.

The combined operation was not a great success. The Italian MAS boats sunk one gunboat and one heavily laden barge. The problem of MAS boats was that in waters less than 20 m deep, use of torpedoes is not possible. Also their targets were small and had low draught. The use of mines could have provided more results, but the route Kobone-Morje was far in south, difficult to reach and danger of enemy air attacks was overwhelming. The northern route was easily accessible, but German ferries wanted this area to be free of mines. The KM boats could load only influence mines, but neither magnetic or acoustic mines were useful against small wooden vessels. The ferries could not operate long times due to their aircraft engines. Only the Italian crews were sailors, the Germans were either infantry or AA personnel.


http://users.tkk.fi/~jaromaa/Navygaller ... Ladoga.htm

I have a book on the Soviet Navy in Russian that appears to credit the gunboat to an MAS.


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Uninen
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Post by Uninen » 28 Jan 2006 06:37

We, Finns that is, actually bought the whole Italian Ladoga MAS-flotilla, thats four boats and we werent "given two boats".
And the boats served as "Jymy-class".

J 1 - Jylhä - 211 - ex MAS 526
J 2 - Jyry - 212 - ex MAS 527
J 3 - Jyske - 213 - ex MAS 528
J 4 - Jymy - 214 - ex MAS 529


Regards.

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Davide Pastore
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Post by Davide Pastore » 28 Jan 2006 14:22

PT Dockyard wrote:I don't think this is true. Both the Soviets anf Finns credit them with a Moscow class gunboat and at least one cargo barge. From one site:
Even if I would be glad to accept such conclusion, websites are not the best sources. Actually they are the worst ones.

I rather tend to believe Kirill, who has access to previously untapped sources.

Davide

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SES
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Post by SES » 28 Jan 2006 14:28

Davide Pastore wrote:
PT Dockyard wrote:I don't think this is true. Both the Soviets anf Finns credit them with a Moscow class gunboat and at least one cargo barge. From one site:
Even if I would be glad to accept such conclusion, websites are not the best sources. Actually they are the worst ones.

Davide
With a few notable exceptions :)
bregds
SES

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PT Dockyard
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Post by PT Dockyard » 28 Jan 2006 21:23

Whatever. Both sites list published sources. I'll stick with the Italian/Finnish accounts when compared to what.. a Soviet era combat report?

Is Kirill's source new ( as in written without the threat of exile to Siberia). If it is a new, VALIDATED report I would accept it.

Dave

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Xavier
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Post by Xavier » 30 Mar 2006 18:40

let's bring back this topic to life:

from: http://www.ahoy.tk-jk.net/MaraudersWW2/15Michel.html
LS tactics by german commerce raiders ( Michel ) : one successful and one foiled attack:
...On arrival, she fueled from the Tanker, Charlotte Schlieman. Two Allied Tankers, the British Patella, 7,468 tons, and the American 8,684 ton Connecticut, were soon captured, the latter being the first victim of'Michel's torpedo boats. Ruekteschell soon developed the tactic of following a potential victim unseen for as long as possible to ascertain her course and speed - after dark, he would then lower a torpedo boat, using her superior speed, this boat would get well ahead of the prey, lie in wait, then, as appropriate use torpedoes.

Early on the morning of the 1st. of May, another chance for action arrived for the torpedo boat, the British Blue Funnel Line, 10,000 ton Minelaus hove into view, the Raider ordered this ship to stop, her Master, Captain J.H. Blyth, refused, his lookouts had quickly reported Michel's first appearance, and the Captain prudently kept his distance.

When the Raider opened fire, the British ship worked up to full speed, using her radio to broadcast the alarm- Minelaus began to draw away, making 1.5 knots better than her rated full speed. Up bounded a torpedo boat, flying a White Ensign, and signaling "stop" by International Code, a torpedo was fired, but Blyth was able to alter course to avoid it. Although varying attempts were made by 'Michel" and the torpedo boat to stop Minelaus- all failed. The torpedo boat was recovered, and the Raider abandoned the chase.
more descriptions found on the homepage:german marauders of the sea: http://www.ahoy.tk-jk.net/macslog/Marau ... rmanA.html

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Xavier
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gjs
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Stefano Turr

Post by gjs » 29 Jun 2006 16:00

Davide Pastore wrote:And this is another interesting and little-known MAS, which untypically had not a number but a name: Stefano Turr. An experimental large aluminium boat built from 1935 to 1937, she was intended as the prototype of a new generation of open-sea attack crafts, but proved disappointing (mainly due to the unreliable engines). After a long career of engine failures she was finally laid up in 1941 and scrapped postwar.

Mas Stefano Turr

Characteristics:

Displacement 58t standard, 61.6t normal, 68.5t full load
Dimensions 32.0m x 5.95m x 1.32m (just 0.95m according to Conway's)
Engines 4x Fiat V1616 Diesels, 4x 750hp
Speed 34kts project, 30-32kts real
Range 750nm/25kts - 1,582nm/16.6kts
Fuel 10t normal, 16t full load
Crew 16
Armament 4x 450mm torpedoes, 2-3x 13.2mm MG, 1x 6.5mm MG, 12x ASW bombs

Note: Stefano Turr was a Hungarian who, while serving as an officier in the Austro-Hungaric army, deserted to the Sardinian in 1849 and subsequently fought in the Baden revolution, in Crimea and with Garibaldi, ending as a regular Italian general. My sources do not provide his original Hungarian name, sorry: maybe Istvàn Türr?
http://www.brigantaggio.net/Brigantaggi ... i/Turr.htm

Davide
Hello,

Thanks a lot for this interesting post. Do you know where the boat was located after it was laid up? Do the Germans considered to put it in service?

Thanks again

gjs

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Davide Pastore
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Re: Stefano Turr

Post by Davide Pastore » 30 Jun 2006 17:59

gjs wrote:Do you know where the boat was located after it was laid up? Do the Germans considered to put it in service?
No, sorry. I have no other info.

Davide

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Dare Furor
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Is there any difference?

Post by Dare Furor » 24 Jul 2006 00:55

Folks,

I have been reading these (5) pages for almost two hours and cannot find the answer to my most basic question: What is the difference between the German torpedo boat and the S-boat? I realise that the S-boat is a fast attack (swift) boat, but the Germans have both Torpedoboot flotillas and Schnellboot flotillas, thus I have to ask "what's the difference?"

Thank-you,

Dare Furor
:?

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