New arcicle on sinking of Hermes, Vampire, Hollyhock, Athelstane, British Sergeant and Norviken

[Rob Stuart]

.
I have written a rather lengthy article on the above subject. It is entitled State of the Art: The Japanese Attacks on Hermes, Vampire, Hollyhock, Athelstane, British Sergeant, and Norviken, 9 April 1942, and it can be accessed at http://www.combinedfleet.com/articles.htm. I would welcome any comments you may have on it.

Rob

[Rob Stuart]

I remain hopeful that one or more AHF members may comment on my latest article, but in the meantime I am drafting my next one, on the sinking of the heavy cruisers Dorsetshire and Cornwall on 5 April 1942 by D3A dive-bombers. Would anyone have a link to a photo of Cornwall's CO, Captain Percival Clive Wickham Manwaring, or his executive officer, Acting Commander John Fair?

Thanks,

Rob

[Fatboy Coxy]

Hi Rob

Apologies, I did read this a while ago, and meant to comment but forgot.

The Indian Ocean in 1942 is very much a backwater of WW2 and has very little interest to most people, thought it does interest me. Possibly that is why you have had such little interest shown.

I found the article extremely well researched and written. Your use of maps and diagrams is a great help, and the many photos of the British ships involved helped give a really good mental picture of how things were, especially with the detail given to the sinking’s. You have gone further into the telling of the sinking’s, examining why decisions were made and highlighted failures as well as successes on both sides.

It highlighted how exposed the British ships were to air attack, which was due in part to poor manoeuvrability of the ships, their poor or nonexistence AA suite, no effective allied air cover, and the large number of attacking aircraft.

It also highlighted the accuracy of the Japanese dive bombers, but I would make a couple of points here. Surely air groups of any of the big three navies would have achieved this level of high accuracy success given the opposition. However, the first couple of hits may well have been the killing blows, suggesting extremely good targeting from the pilots.

And secondly, even if the 8 Fulmars had been on time, the large number of Vals, 32 I believe, would have overwhelmed them, and pressed on given the high value of the target.

It’s an exceptionally good account, and I will use the article as a reference whenever I would want to discuss the loss of the Hermes. Your efforts are much appreciated, thank you.

Regards

Fatboy Coxy

[wdgysin]

I thought the article was very well done. I am also interested in the Eastern Fleet and have many books and articles on the war
in the Indian Ocean, which is sparsely covered. In hindsight, it seems the British were right to be cautious and not seek an all out
fleet action unless on extremely favorable terms.With their global commitments it was better to keep a fleet in being rather than
subject it to destruction by the Japanese. Will anxiously await any further articles you wish to produce.
PS You might also want to post the article link on the Pacific Campaign portion of AHF for more exposure.

[Rob Stuart]

Fatboy Coxy, wdgysin,

Thank you very much for your kind words. I'm glad that you found the article interesting and appreciate that you took the time to share your thoughts.

[Dili]

Rob Stuart i think an issue is that you have a doc format and not a webpage, some people refrain to download doc's, myself i think it is preferably pdf if we want to share a text and don't want to bother with webpage formatting, the pdf readers are more friendly than text editors . I'll comment further when i read the docs.

Edit: btw do you know the computer game War in Pacific Admiral Edition?

[Traceydeakin]

I remain hopeful that one or more AHF members may comment on my latest article, but in the meantime I am drafting my next one, on the sinking of the heavy cruisers Dorsetshire and Cornwall on 5 April 1942 by D3A dive-bombers. Would anyone have a link to a photo of Cornwall's CO, Captain Percival Clive Wickham Manwaring, or his executive officer, Acting Commander John Fair?

Thanks,

Rob

Hi Rob
I have just joined the forum as i noticed your post regarding a photograph of the CO of HMS Cornwall Percival Clive Wickham Manwaring. He was my 6th cousin twice removed. I have also been trying to locate a photograph of him as part of my family tree. Unfortunately, i have all his naval and personal history, but have had no luck on getting a photograph. I was hoping to get across to the Royal Naval Museum at Plymouth Dockyard before the Covid lockdown, but it is closed at the moment, i only live across the water in Torpoint, Cornwall. If i manage to get there and i have any luck, i will send you a copy. If in the meantime you do manage to get lucky, i would be very grateful to get a copy from you.

Many Thanks
Tracey Deakin ne Manwaring

[Rob Stuart]

Hi Tracey,

My article on the loss of Cornwall and Dorsetshire is now available at http://www.combinedfleet.com/articles.htm. It does not include any photo of Capt Manwaring because I never found one. If you do find one I'd be grateful if you could share it, e.g., by posting it on this site.

Does your family have any letters, diaries or whatever relating to Capt Manwaring's time as CO of Cornwall?

[Andy H]

I thought the article was very well done. I am also interested in the Eastern Fleet and have many books and articles on the war
in the Indian Ocean, which is sparsely covered. In hindsight, it seems the British were right to be cautious and not seek an all out
fleet action unless on extremely favorable terms.With their global commitments it was better to keep a fleet in being rather than
subject it to destruction by the Japanese. Will anxiously await any further articles you wish to produce.
PS You might also want to post the article link on the Pacific Campaign portion of AHF for more exposure.

Hi wdgysin

You might like 'Of Islands Ports and Sea Lanes (Africa and the Indian Ocean in the Second World War) by Ashley Jackson, Published by Helion 2018.

He postulates that the Indian Ocean was a key strategic Imperial and later Allied asset, whose role has often been downplayed by the lack of large naval actions, yet it ranked only behind the Atlantic Ocean in terms of importance to the UK.

Regards

Andy H

[Rob Stuart]

I thought the article was very well done. I am also interested in the Eastern Fleet and have many books and articles on the war
in the Indian Ocean, which is sparsely covered. In hindsight, it seems the British were right to be cautious and not seek an all out
fleet action unless on extremely favorable terms.With their global commitments it was better to keep a fleet in being rather than
subject it to destruction by the Japanese. Will anxiously await any further articles you wish to produce.
PS You might also want to post the article link on the Pacific Campaign portion of AHF for more exposure.

Hi wdgysin

You might like 'Of Islands Ports and Sea Lanes (Africa and the Indian Ocean in the Second World War) by Ashley Jackson, Published by Helion 2018.

He postulates that the Indian Ocean was a key strategic Imperial and later Allied asset, whose role has often been downplayed by the lack of large naval actions, yet it ranked only behind the Atlantic Ocean in terms of importance to the UK.

Regards

Andy H

I agree with your comment about 'Of Islands, Ports and Sea Lanes'. I'd also recommend Boyd's "The Royal Navy in Eastern Waters".

[Tom from Cornwall]

I agree with your comment about 'Of Islands, Ports and Sea Lanes'. I'd also recommend Boyd's "The Royal Navy in Eastern Waters".

Totally agree, both excellent and well-referenced, and inspiration for further reference into this rather overlooked arena of WW2.

The only trouble now is that to make room for all the Far East/Indian Ocean books I am buying, I will have to have to choose between sacrificing my NW Europe or my Western Desert books.

Regards

Tom

[Andy H]

I thought the article was very well done. I am also interested in the Eastern Fleet and have many books and articles on the war
in the Indian Ocean, which is sparsely covered. In hindsight, it seems the British were right to be cautious and not seek an all out
fleet action unless on extremely favorable terms.With their global commitments it was better to keep a fleet in being rather than
subject it to destruction by the Japanese. Will anxiously await any further articles you wish to produce.
PS You might also want to post the article link on the Pacific Campaign portion of AHF for more exposure.

Hi wdgysin

You might like 'Of Islands Ports and Sea Lanes (Africa and the Indian Ocean in the Second World War) by Ashley Jackson, Published by Helion 2018.

He postulates that the Indian Ocean was a key strategic Imperial and later Allied asset, whose role has often been downplayed by the lack of large naval actions, yet it ranked only behind the Atlantic Ocean in terms of importance to the UK.

Regards

Andy H

I agree with your comment about 'Of Islands, Ports and Sea Lanes'. I'd also recommend Boyd's "The Royal Navy in Eastern Waters".

Hi Rob

Yep Boyd's book is good and it was well overdue. The Atlantic and Med have been done to death, as has the central Pacific.

I really enjoyed Jeffrey Cox book a few years back, Rising Sun, Falling Skies (The Disastrous Java Sea Campaign of WW2) which certainly gave new light on a time when we quickly jump from PH to Midway in most MH, and this event is usually polished off in a couple of paragraphs.

Regards

Andy H

[KevDen]

First, although Rob knows my opinion already, both his 'articles' are first rate and certainly the very latest / most up to date word on the subject. A true labour of love and both highly recommended!

However, as someone else suggested Rob, it would be ideal to have them all as PDF's, which IIRC one of them is but the other is not(?), although I stand to be corrected on that.

Yep Boyd's book is good and it was well overdue. The Atlantic and Med have been done to death, as has the central Pacific.

Yes Boyds book is certainly well worth having for the bigger picture, but I find its title a little 'misleading' shall we say (i.e. The Royal Navy in Eastern Waters: Linchpin of Victory 1935-1942); given it ends in '42 after all. Still, a worthy addition on the Indian Ocean subject no doubt.

I really enjoyed Jeffrey Cox book a few years back, Rising Sun, Falling Skies (The Disastrous Java Sea Campaign of WW2) which certainly gave new light on a time when we quickly jump from PH to Midway in most MH, and this event is usually polished off in a couple of paragraphs.

Yes, a ‘modern’ comprehensive book on that generally overlooked campaign was long overdue, and while Mr Cox’s book was welcome and in most respect good, it was primarily based on secondary sources, and a few assumptions of his own, one of which did the service of history far from any good! The worst of these assumptions – originally published prior to the book as an on-line article entitled “A Turn Too Far” - and now, IIRC as I do not have my copy at hand - is in chapter 16 in the book which is entitled ‘A Turn Too Far - The Second Part of the Battle of the Java Sea’. What I am directly referring to is his own version of part of the action on the night of 28th Feb, 1942, when Hr. Ms. Java and Hr. Ms. De Ruyter were sunk, and the woefully inaccurate map he published to illustrate the torpedoing of same! It is beyond me why he made the incorrect assumption that it was an individual Allied ships turn away, when ALL historical evidence, both Japanese and Allied, confirms a column turn away (and by the time of his writing even contemporary evidence, with the discovery of the two ships wrecks in 2002, and their later subsequent surveys). And much if not all of the evidence disproving his incorrect assumption was already readily available on-line and off well before 2014 when he first published his book. Of this I have ample proof myself in collected original source material, but I wont hijack this thread any further by posting those attachments here. (But should anyone like to discuss / debate same I’ll gladly start another thread on the subject.) But kudos to Mr Cox for writing his book and bringing the subject to a wider audience just the same!

I believe a far better book - and certainly more thoroughly researched - although admittedly 'viewed' more from an ‘American perspective’ so to speak, although that distracts nothing from it and is rather obvious from its title - is Don Kehn’s "In The Highest Degree Tragic: The Sacrifice of the U.S. Asiatic Fleet in the East Indies during World War II”, first published in 2017 IIRC. And his research is primarily, if not all, based on original source material, not just taken from secondary sources. Highly recommended - if not mandatory - reading for an up-to-date comprehensive grasp of the subject!

[Andy H]

Hi Kev

Point taken on the research aspect and thank you for the nod about Kehn's book.

As for the title, I think many a book title has a touch of publishing hype attached to it, so it leaps of the bookshelf to potential buyers.
I suppose that one might argue that the RN's Eastern fleets survival into 1942 (in a much reduced and battered state) provided a springboard for what followed.

Regards

Andy H

[Tom from Cornwall]

I believe a far better book - and certainly more thoroughly researched - although admittedly 'viewed' more from an ‘American perspective’ so to speak, although that distracts nothing from it and is rather obvious from its title - is Don Kehn’s "In The Highest Degree Tragic: The Sacrifice of the U.S. Asiatic Fleet in the East Indies during World War II”, first published in 2017 IIRC. And his research is primarily, if not all, based on original source material, not just taken from secondary sources. Highly recommended - if not mandatory - reading for an up-to-date comprehensive grasp of the subject!

Thanks for the recommendation.

Regards

Tom