Japanese Kantai Kessen night attacks
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Japanese Kantai Kessen night attacks
Hi all
I’m looking for a better in depth understanding of how the Japanese would have conducted a night attack on the USN fleet, prior to the decisive battle, following their Kantai Kessen doctrine
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kantai_Kessen here for general plan
The night phase is the bit that intrigues me, Wiki mentions it as “Fast heavy cruisers working with destroyer flotillas would attack the US battleships at night, making use of their long-range Type 93 torpedoes to inflict further losses”. Well that sounds all well and good on paper, but how was it actually meant to happen.
So, first question is what is the distance between the fleets prior to the night engagement. Well according to the plane, carrier aircraft, along with land-based bombers and submarines had been doing their best to inflict losses of hopefully 20%. So, I’d guess the main body of the fleets would have to be about 100 nautical miles apart at that time. This would allow scouting forces, pushing out maybe 25 Nmi each to be about 50 Nmi apart,
Now the Japanese would have a fix on the location of the main body at sunset, but how well they might predict where they will be later. It too much to think they can maintain a recon over the USN fleet. So, an element of searching will have to be done.
OK so we push our heavy cruisers, let’s say 3 squadrons of 4 each, with maybe a flotilla of 8 destroyers per cruiser squadron, to the edge of the defensive screen, and await night fall. So, I’m looking at 50 Nmi’s away, USN defensive screen, and another 25 Nmi to the main body. Do they send them as three independent probes, or follow my leader, the first to punch a hole in the defensive screen, the others to follow through to the main fleet? And let’s say they move in at 25 knots, easy for the heavy cruisers, but a bit more punishing for the destroyers, and they have three hours of this.
At this point, I’d like to consider formations, is it destroyers fanned out to make a maximum potential for contact, and are the heavy cruisers in line astern, or line abreast?
Now closing to contact, its going to be easier to spot a ship with a 25-knot bow wave than one at 15 knots, so do they add another 30 mins say to the dash forward, allowing the final expected approach to be at a slower speed. Does anyone follow this?
Japanese optics were as good as any, and better than most, and remember this is doctrine is pre-radar. But how far could they realistically see the enemy, to take advantage of the exceptional Type 93 torpedo range?
And having fired their torpedoes, are they to be saved for future work, and retire to reload, or are they considered expendable, and press on with gunfire?
Sorry, that’s a load of questions, please feel free to answer any one or more, or even just tell me I’m over thinking this, and it would be left to the local commanders as to how they achieved their missions
Regards
Fatboy Coxy
I’m looking for a better in depth understanding of how the Japanese would have conducted a night attack on the USN fleet, prior to the decisive battle, following their Kantai Kessen doctrine
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kantai_Kessen here for general plan
The night phase is the bit that intrigues me, Wiki mentions it as “Fast heavy cruisers working with destroyer flotillas would attack the US battleships at night, making use of their long-range Type 93 torpedoes to inflict further losses”. Well that sounds all well and good on paper, but how was it actually meant to happen.
So, first question is what is the distance between the fleets prior to the night engagement. Well according to the plane, carrier aircraft, along with land-based bombers and submarines had been doing their best to inflict losses of hopefully 20%. So, I’d guess the main body of the fleets would have to be about 100 nautical miles apart at that time. This would allow scouting forces, pushing out maybe 25 Nmi each to be about 50 Nmi apart,
Now the Japanese would have a fix on the location of the main body at sunset, but how well they might predict where they will be later. It too much to think they can maintain a recon over the USN fleet. So, an element of searching will have to be done.
OK so we push our heavy cruisers, let’s say 3 squadrons of 4 each, with maybe a flotilla of 8 destroyers per cruiser squadron, to the edge of the defensive screen, and await night fall. So, I’m looking at 50 Nmi’s away, USN defensive screen, and another 25 Nmi to the main body. Do they send them as three independent probes, or follow my leader, the first to punch a hole in the defensive screen, the others to follow through to the main fleet? And let’s say they move in at 25 knots, easy for the heavy cruisers, but a bit more punishing for the destroyers, and they have three hours of this.
At this point, I’d like to consider formations, is it destroyers fanned out to make a maximum potential for contact, and are the heavy cruisers in line astern, or line abreast?
Now closing to contact, its going to be easier to spot a ship with a 25-knot bow wave than one at 15 knots, so do they add another 30 mins say to the dash forward, allowing the final expected approach to be at a slower speed. Does anyone follow this?
Japanese optics were as good as any, and better than most, and remember this is doctrine is pre-radar. But how far could they realistically see the enemy, to take advantage of the exceptional Type 93 torpedo range?
And having fired their torpedoes, are they to be saved for future work, and retire to reload, or are they considered expendable, and press on with gunfire?
Sorry, that’s a load of questions, please feel free to answer any one or more, or even just tell me I’m over thinking this, and it would be left to the local commanders as to how they achieved their missions
Regards
Fatboy Coxy
Re: Japanese Kantai Kessen night attacks
Hello Fatboy Coxy,
Below is an ideal Night Attack.
指揮巡洋艦戦隊 (夜戦部隊指揮官 Night Battle Unit CO) Commanding Cruiser Squadron
第1夜戦群 1st Night Battle Group , 第2夜戦群 2nd Night Battle Group: each consisted of 2 夜戦隊 2 Night Squadrons
4個夜戦隊 4 Night Squadrons: each consisted of 1 Heavy Cruiser Squadron and 1 Torpedo Squadron
1st and 2nd Torpedo Squadron had 重雷装艦 2 Heavy Torpedo Light Cruisers
支援隊 Support Unit: consisted of a Cruiser Battleship Squadron
敵主隊 Enemy Main Force
・ To prevent the enemy fleet from escaping, it is necessary to approach 60 nautical miles at sunset.
・ After contact with the enemy fleet, surround it as shown in the figure.
・ Each ship performs long-distance covert torpedo strikes according to the command of the commander.
・ Commanding Cruiser Squadron divide into 第1小隊 and 第2小隊 two platoons.
・ When the above torpedoes approach the enemy fleet, each unit conducts an 突撃 charge and approaches the target up to 2,000 meters and performs a torpedo strike.
・ The commander provides support with lighting bullets and search lights during this period.
・ Repeat charge depending on the situation.
fontessa
Below is an ideal Night Attack.
指揮巡洋艦戦隊 (夜戦部隊指揮官 Night Battle Unit CO) Commanding Cruiser Squadron
第1夜戦群 1st Night Battle Group , 第2夜戦群 2nd Night Battle Group: each consisted of 2 夜戦隊 2 Night Squadrons
4個夜戦隊 4 Night Squadrons: each consisted of 1 Heavy Cruiser Squadron and 1 Torpedo Squadron
1st and 2nd Torpedo Squadron had 重雷装艦 2 Heavy Torpedo Light Cruisers
支援隊 Support Unit: consisted of a Cruiser Battleship Squadron
敵主隊 Enemy Main Force
・ To prevent the enemy fleet from escaping, it is necessary to approach 60 nautical miles at sunset.
・ After contact with the enemy fleet, surround it as shown in the figure.
・ Each ship performs long-distance covert torpedo strikes according to the command of the commander.
・ Commanding Cruiser Squadron divide into 第1小隊 and 第2小隊 two platoons.
・ When the above torpedoes approach the enemy fleet, each unit conducts an 突撃 charge and approaches the target up to 2,000 meters and performs a torpedo strike.
・ The commander provides support with lighting bullets and search lights during this period.
・ Repeat charge depending on the situation.
fontessa
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Re: Japanese Kantai Kessen night attacks
Thank you fontessa, this is simply an excellent diagram
Some observations and some queries
Each destroyer squadron had a light cruiser as a squadron flagship/leader
Each heavy cruiser squadron of 4 ships was subdivided into two sections of 2 ships
Question, is "lightning bullets" another translation of Star-shells?
Are the smaller thin black arrows enemy formations or indications of where the Japanese ships will manoeuvre to
Regards
Fatboy Coxy
Some observations and some queries
Each destroyer squadron had a light cruiser as a squadron flagship/leader
Each heavy cruiser squadron of 4 ships was subdivided into two sections of 2 ships
Question, is "lightning bullets" another translation of Star-shells?
Are the smaller thin black arrows enemy formations or indications of where the Japanese ships will manoeuvre to
Regards
Fatboy Coxy
Re: Japanese Kantai Kessen night attacks
Hello Fatboy Coxy,
fontessa
Yes.Fatboy Coxy wrote: ↑03 Sep 2019, 17:51Question, is "lightning bullets" another translation of Star-shells?
They show the direction of the 支援隊 Support Unit advances.Fatboy Coxy wrote: ↑03 Sep 2019, 17:51Are the smaller thin black arrows enemy formations or indications of where the Japanese ships will manoeuvre to
fontessa
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Re: Japanese Kantai Kessen night attacks
Apologies Fontessa, another query
Regards
Fatboy Coxy
I'm thinking these would be the Kongo class battleships
Regards
Fatboy Coxy
Re: Japanese Kantai Kessen night attacks
Hello Fatboy Coxy,
Yes.Fatboy Coxy wrote: ↑10 Sep 2019, 21:36I'm thinking these would be the Kongo class battleships
Fatboy Coxy
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Re: Japanese Kantai Kessen night attacks
Thank you Fontessa
Re: Japanese Kantai Kessen night attacks
I found the details of the Night Attack formation conceived in 1941. It was temporarily organized from 2nd Fleer and battleships/cruisers detached from 1st Fleet. In IJN, unlike IJA, "OOB" meant a ship's placement as the below.
Commander: 2nd Fleet Commander
Commander direct commanding Unit: 4th Squadron (Takao class Heavy Cruisers)
- 1st Platoon: Atago and Takao ①
- 2nd Platoon: Chokai and Maya ②
Support Unit: 3rd Squadron (Kongo class High-speed Battleships)
- 1st Platoon: Hiei and Kirishima ③
- 2nd Platoon: Kongo and Haruna ④
1st Group ⑤
- 5th Squadron (3 of Myoko class Heavy Cruisers / The rest one is used as the flagship of the designated Southern Fleet.)
- 2nd Torpedo Squadron
2nd Group ⑥
- 7th Squadron (Mogami class Heavy Cruisers)
- 4th Torpedo Squadron
3rd Group ⑦
- 6th Squadron (Furutaka class Heavy Cruisers)
- 1st Torpedo Squadron
4th Group ⑧
- 8th Squadron (Tone class Heavy Cruisers)
- 3rd Torpedo Squadron
9th Squadron (Kitakami and Oi) ⑨ See the 2nd figure of Heavy Torpedo Equipped Light Cruisers
fontedda
Commander: 2nd Fleet Commander
Commander direct commanding Unit: 4th Squadron (Takao class Heavy Cruisers)
- 1st Platoon: Atago and Takao ①
- 2nd Platoon: Chokai and Maya ②
Support Unit: 3rd Squadron (Kongo class High-speed Battleships)
- 1st Platoon: Hiei and Kirishima ③
- 2nd Platoon: Kongo and Haruna ④
1st Group ⑤
- 5th Squadron (3 of Myoko class Heavy Cruisers / The rest one is used as the flagship of the designated Southern Fleet.)
- 2nd Torpedo Squadron
2nd Group ⑥
- 7th Squadron (Mogami class Heavy Cruisers)
- 4th Torpedo Squadron
3rd Group ⑦
- 6th Squadron (Furutaka class Heavy Cruisers)
- 1st Torpedo Squadron
4th Group ⑧
- 8th Squadron (Tone class Heavy Cruisers)
- 3rd Torpedo Squadron
9th Squadron (Kitakami and Oi) ⑨ See the 2nd figure of Heavy Torpedo Equipped Light Cruisers
fontedda
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Re: Japanese Kantai Kessen night attacks
Actually, only KITAKAMI was equipped with that many torpedo mounts (10x4)...OI only had 32 tubes (8x4).
MSG, MS State Guard (Ret.) - First Always!
Re: Japanese Kantai Kessen night attacks
Thanks. I heard above Oi's story for the first time. In Japan, she is believed to have been fully equipped with torpedo tubes.ijnfleetadmiral wrote: ↑04 Apr 2022, 06:03Actually, only KITAKAMI was equipped with that many torpedo mounts (10x4)...OI only had 32 tubes (8x4).
Unfortunately, I couldn't find "Heavy Torpedo Equipped Oi" photo because this was IJN's top secret.
Can you show the source?
fontessa
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Re: Japanese Kantai Kessen night attacks
Source was this: http://combinedfleet.com/ships/kuma, only I had it backwards: KITAKAMI had less tubes. As to how they were actually, armed, we'll probably never know as I've only ever seen one photo of KITAKAMI in this form, and it was an aerial view of her under attack at Surabaya on 23 June 1943. It's part of a larger photo and taken from high altitude, so the view of her is not very detailed. Might you know of any photos of KITAKAMI or OI during their time as torpedo cruisers?
MSG, MS State Guard (Ret.) - First Always!
Re: Japanese Kantai Kessen night attacks
Thanks.ijnfleetadmiral wrote: ↑04 Apr 2022, 08:31Source was this: http://combinedfleet.com/ships/kuma, only I had it backwards: KITAKAMI had less tubes. As to how they were actually, armed, we'll probably never know as I've only ever seen one photo of KITAKAMI in this form, and it was an aerial view of her under attack at Surabaya on 23 June 1943. It's part of a larger photo and taken from high altitude, so the view of her is not very detailed.
A fairly important correction to your source.
But the source says under the performance tables:
Kitakami: She received ten Type 92 quadruple torpedo tube mounts for the 61-centimeter long range oxygen-propelled Type 93 "Long Lance" torpedoes.
Oi: she took on ten Type 92 Model 3 quadruple mount torpedo tube launchers for Type 93 "Long Lance" torpedoes.
Only the below I have. Unfortunately, her name is not clear.ijnfleetadmiral wrote: ↑04 Apr 2022, 08:31Might you know of any photos of KITAKAMI or OI during their time as torpedo cruisers?
fontessa
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Re: Japanese Kantai Kessen night attacks
That's the exact photo I saw.
MSG, MS State Guard (Ret.) - First Always!
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Re: Japanese Kantai Kessen night attacks
This is great stuff guys, thank you, but it brings up another question on strategy
Kitakami and Oi were two of five ships of the Kuma class of light cruisers, but further conversions were stopped after Chief of Staff Rear Admiral Matome Ugaki expressed concerns of the modifications, and asked for a revision of the Navy's tactics. The suggestion made was improved naval aviation and submarine warfare had made this plan obsolete. This info taken from Wikipedia, which cites Ugaki's diary as its source.
So what tactics were questionable, the use of the Type 93 on ships, or the whole night fighting tactics of the Kantai Kessen
Kitakami and Oi were two of five ships of the Kuma class of light cruisers, but further conversions were stopped after Chief of Staff Rear Admiral Matome Ugaki expressed concerns of the modifications, and asked for a revision of the Navy's tactics. The suggestion made was improved naval aviation and submarine warfare had made this plan obsolete. This info taken from Wikipedia, which cites Ugaki's diary as its source.
So what tactics were questionable, the use of the Type 93 on ships, or the whole night fighting tactics of the Kantai Kessen
Re: Japanese Kantai Kessen night attacks
Oi removed six torpedo tubes when converted into a Transport Cruiser in 1942. I think “4x2” in your source is the clerical error of “4x4”.ijnfleetadmiral wrote: ↑04 Apr 2022, 06:03Actually, only KITAKAMI was equipped with that many torpedo mounts (10x4)...OI only had 32 tubes (8x4).
fontessa