Wake Quest

Discussions on all aspects of the Japanese Empire, from the capture of Taiwan until the end of the Second World War.
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fontessa
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Re: Wake Quest

Post by fontessa » 13 Jan 2022 22:17

Brady wrote:
13 Jan 2022 20:07
btw, what's the Red and Purple areas denoting ?
The Center Red area shows the engine room and true funnel. (Forward "funnel" is a fake for camouflage,)
The Rear Red area shows the steering room.
I don't know what the Purple area show.

神州丸 2.jpg

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daveshoup2MD
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Re: Wake Quest

Post by daveshoup2MD » 13 Jan 2022 22:29

fontessa wrote:
13 Jan 2022 22:06
daveshoup2MD wrote:
13 Jan 2022 20:10
The USN built and designed dedicated amphibious transports (Henderson and Heywood) with dedicated boat groups and facilities before and after WW I (Heywood was designed but not built); the British had been involved with the Danube flo-flo ferry designs that gave rise to the LSD as far back as the 1920s. Shinshu Maru is impressive for actually being designed and built, but both the USN and the British were considering similar concepts a decade earlier.
Oh, I would like to withdraw "1934 when the United States and Britain never thought about it.".
One question, Was U.S. Navy category AP intended landing operations?

fontessa
Yep. USS Henderson (AP-1, laid down in 1915 and commissioned in 1917) was designed and built specifically to serve as the a means for moving the landing force - what was designated at the time as the "advanced base" regiments, from the US to the island being assaulted (either in the Caribbean or the Pacific, presumably) with some 1,600 Marines, and including attached artillery (8 to 14 guns); the boat group included two artillery lighters (shallow draft craft capable of carrying pieces in the 76mm to 127mm range ashore, complete with motorized vehicles to tow them, and a variety of shallow draft personnel craft, 11 in total; all capable of being launched over the side via the ship's cranes/derricks and/or davits. She also had 6 127mm pieces of her own for self-defense and shore bombardment; four were designed to be dismounted and placed ashore to support the infantry as seacoast guns, if needed.

Henderson was, essentially, the first "assault ship" designed and built as such for the USN, and - quite probably - for any navy.

Heywood, designed after WW I, was an improved version, but was not built because of the wide availability of war-built ships - the 1024s, 1029s, and 1095s, which were all built for military use and were part of the USN's mobilization plans from the 1920s to the 1940s - at which point they were taken up, and the 1029s, largest of the three designs, were converted, almost en masse, to APAs. The two smaller designs were generally sued as pure troopships or for other auxiliary purposes during WW II.

Brady
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Re: Wake Quest

Post by Brady » 13 Jan 2022 23:17

fontessa wrote:
13 Jan 2022 22:06
daveshoup2MD wrote:
13 Jan 2022 20:10
The USN built and designed dedicated amphibious transports (Henderson and Heywood) with dedicated boat groups and facilities before and after WW I (Heywood was designed but not built); the British had been involved with the Danube flo-flo ferry designs that gave rise to the LSD as far back as the 1920s. Shinshu Maru is impressive for actually being designed and built, but both the USN and the British were considering similar concepts a decade earlier.
Oh, I would like to withdraw "1934 when the United States and Britain never thought about it.".
One question, Was U.S. Navy category AP intended landing operations?

fontessa
Yes they were, but the Nomenclature would change over the course of the war


https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/Online ... /ap-no.htm

https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/Online ... apa-no.htm

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Re: Wake Quest

Post by daveshoup2MD » 14 Jan 2022 00:15

Brady wrote:
13 Jan 2022 23:17
fontessa wrote:
13 Jan 2022 22:06
daveshoup2MD wrote:
13 Jan 2022 20:10
The USN built and designed dedicated amphibious transports (Henderson and Heywood) with dedicated boat groups and facilities before and after WW I (Heywood was designed but not built); the British had been involved with the Danube flo-flo ferry designs that gave rise to the LSD as far back as the 1920s. Shinshu Maru is impressive for actually being designed and built, but both the USN and the British were considering similar concepts a decade earlier.
Oh, I would like to withdraw "1934 when the United States and Britain never thought about it.".
One question, Was U.S. Navy category AP intended landing operations?

fontessa
Yes they were, but the Nomenclature would change over the course of the war


https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/Online ... /ap-no.htm

https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/Online ... apa-no.htm
True. The US Navy's "AP" type ships were both pure troopers and dedicated amphibious transports (generally better accommodation, heavier davits and cargo-handling gear, landing craft rather than boats, naval crews), generally known as "attack transports" or "combat loaders" until early in 1943, when the amphibious troopers were re-designated (and in many cases, re-numbered) in the APA series; naval freighters ("AK") similarly fitted out for assault duties with landing craft, etc, were re-designated "AKA" at the same time.

The USN's pure troopers (point to point troopships) and cargo vessels remained AP and AK, respectively. There were also similar vessels (both transports and freighters) with mixed naval and Merchant Marine/Maritime Service crews that were not commissioned or given hull numbers and designations; these remained "civilian" merchant vessels, legally, although almost all were either owned or under long term charter to the US government, and managed through the War Shipping Administration.

At various times, there were also Army-managed troopships that were designated USAT (United States Army Transport), as well as some specialized commissioned AP types, including "APH" (transports that landed troops and then withdrew with wounded as evacuation transports) and X-APs, which were extemporized "attack transports" - basically, troopers but with their boat group replaced in part with landing craft.

Linkagain
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Re: Wake Quest

Post by Linkagain » 14 Jan 2022 00:29

See the following link on IJN airplane Losses at Wake December 1941...
viewtopic.php?f=65&t=141426&p=1234495&h ... e#p1234495

Brady
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Re: Wake Quest

Post by Brady » 14 Jan 2022 00:42

Linkagain wrote:
14 Jan 2022 00:29
See the following link on IJN airplane Losses at Wake December 1941...
viewtopic.php?f=65&t=141426&p=1234495&h ... e#p1234495
Very helpful, it could be that they were scouts or simply being use to assist with navigation, referring to the two Kates:

The 21st december 1941: The Soryu launched 14 Aichi D3A1 (lead by Takashige Egusa) escorted by 9 Mitsubishi A6M2 (lead by Masaji Suganami) and the HIryu launched 15 Aichi D3A1 (lead by Michio Kobayashi) escorted by 9 Mitsubishi A6M2 (lead by Sumio Nono) plus 2 Nakajima B5N2 used as scout. 2 Soryu's planes damaged.

The 22nd december 1941 : The Soryu launched 4 Aicha D3A1 in patrol and the Hiryu did the same for replacing the ones of the Soryu. About 11 h, the Soryu sent to Wake 17 Nakajima B5N2 (lead by Heijiro Abe) escorted by 3 Mitsubishi A6M2 (lead by Iyozo Fujita) and the Hiryu sent 16 Nakajima B5N2 (lead by Tadashi Kusumi) escorted by 3 Mitsubishi A6M2 (lead by Kiyokuma Okajima).
The 39 japanese planes met the 2 last Wildcat piloted by Davidson (211-F-9) and Feuler(211-F-8). Among my book :
Feuler shot down one B5N2 (Soryu. Crew killed : Kurita, Otani and Okami) and after he shot down an another B5N2 (Soryu. Crew killed : Sato, Kanai and Anada. During the Pearl Harbor attack, Kanai flew on the BI-323 maybe he was shot down on this plane but not sure). Then the Feuler 's Wildcat was attacked by the Mitsubishi A6M2 piloted by Isao Tahara (Hiryu) . Feuler (wounded) escaped and landed on Wake Island. Meanwhile, Tahara attacked and shot down the Davidson's Wildcat (pilot killed).
During the bombing, some planes were damaged by the Marines AAA. The B5N2 of Heijiro Abe (Soryu) had to make a belly landing near one carrier (crew saved).

The 23rd december 1941: several attacks, no loss.

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Re: Wake Quest

Post by Eugen Pinak » 14 Jan 2022 12:24

Brady wrote:
13 Jan 2022 20:07
btw, what's the Red and Purple areas denoting ?
Purple area is just a water, that surrounds ship.

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Re: Wake Quest

Post by Eugen Pinak » 14 Jan 2022 12:25

fontessa wrote:
13 Jan 2022 22:17
Brady wrote:
13 Jan 2022 20:07
btw, what's the Red and Purple areas denoting ?
The Center Red area shows the engine room and true funnel. (Forward "funnel" is a fake for camouflage,)
The Rear Red area shows the steering room.
I don't know what the Purple area show.


神州丸 2.jpg


fontessa
fontessa - thank you very much for the details. Tooday I've learned something about landing ship.

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Re: Wake Quest

Post by Brady » 14 Jan 2022 17:31

The Next Piece of the Puzzel, would be the Land based Japanese assets operating out of the Marshal Islands, Specifically, Kwajalein

Air Flotilla 24

Air Attack Force 1 34 G3M-2 Type 96 Navy bombers (Chitose Air Groupe) (at Roi on the 8th)

Chitose Air Groupe Fighter Squadron - 36 total Type 96 Initially at Toroa but also at Roi for air defense on the eve of war.

Edit- Also there was supposedly One G4M operating out of Kwajalein for Recon???

Air Attack Force 3 Seven Kawanishi H6K4 Type 97 flying boats (Yokohama Air Group) operating from Majuro at least in part being supported by Kamoi (I have references indicating there were up to 12 H6K4?)

As:

Japanese sent two Kawanishi H6K’s on a reconnaissance flight from their forward operating base at Majuro, arriving at Wake at 0500 hours on December 12. Each plane dropped four 250-kg and twelve 60-kg bombs

Then:

second night sortie of ten Kawanishi H6K’s launched from Wotje

Then:

On December 15, a third sortie was attempted with seven Kawanishi H6K’s launched from Wotje, of which six reached their targets at 1730 hours, each dropping four 250-kg and twelve 60-kg bombs and returning to Wotje without losses. A final mission was undertaken by eight aircraft on December 18, arriving over Wake at 1752 hours and dropping a total of five 250-kg and seventy-eight 60-kg bombs, encountering little opposition. Wake Island surrendered to Japan on December 23





No.6 Base Force at Kwajalein:

What was this unit's TOE, was it also on the other islands in the Marshals or were there other unit on those islands?

Kiyokawa Maru - How many Aircraft were assigned to her? (what Type) (16 December 1941:
Departs Truk for Roi.)


Kamoi - How many Aircraft were assigned to her? (what Type) Initially at Majuro (Dec. 8)

..............

Image

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fontessa
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Re: Wake Quest

Post by fontessa » 17 Jan 2022 06:58

Brady wrote:
14 Jan 2022 17:31
The Next Piece of the Puzzel, would be the Land based Japanese assets operating out of the Marshal Islands, Specifically, Kwajalein
Let me talk about Perl Harbor attack a little more. I wasn't sure if there were spare airplanes on the aircraft carriers.

fontessa wrote:
13 Jan 2022 08:12
December 25
1st Air Fleet Commanding Officer ordered the return to Kure.
December 29
Arrived Kure.
The return of Cardiv2, which was split due to the attack on Wake Island, was as described above, but the main force of the 1st Air Fleet returned to Kure on December 23, a little earlier. But they couldn't stay laid back. They must prepare the support for Rabaul and Kavieng capture operation, which will be activated early next year.

I found 戦時日誌 War Diary of Cardiv5. It is itself interesting and says also about the number of airplanes on aircraft carriers.

According to it, Zuikaku and Shokaku air groups moved to Oita, before the 1st Air Fleet reached Kure and carried out maintenance, supply, acceptance of the replenishment, training, and rest. Participating ships and chain of command were revealed on the 26th. With the name of the Navy Minister, the number of airplanes on each carrier was notified on the 31st in the form of an amendment to 内令第365号 Navy Order No.365 dated April 10. I think 内令第365号 prescribes the number of airplanes on each carrier of the Pearl Harbor attack. But because 内令第365号 was distributed to very few, we can’t see it.

The below picture shows the notice on the 31st.
31日附本年内令第365号飛行機供給表及艦船飛行機搭載表中ノ通改正ス
Navy Order No.365 “Airplane supply table and ship airplane loading table” issued on 10 April 1941 was revised on the 31st.
別表第4中1AFノ部ヲ左ノ如ク改ム
1st Air Fleet part of the attached table was revised.

1sf 加賀 Kaga Zeak 18 / 3, Vaal 18 / 3, Kate 27 / 6 赤城 Akagi Zeak 18 / 3, Vaal 18 / 3, Kate 18 / 3
2sf 蒼龍 Sryu,飛龍 Hiryu 18 / 3, Vaal 18 / 3, Kate 18 / 3
4sf 龍驤 Ryujo Zeak 18 / 4, Kate 12 / 4
5sf 瑞鶴 Zuikaku, 翔鶴 Shokaku 18 / 3, Vaal 18 / 3, Kate 18 / 3

As compared with the table for the Perl Harbor attack below, I noticed the numbers for Kaga and Akagi were smaller. And the numbers for spare airplanes were clearly specified.
I can be confident that the numbers of spare airplanes were clearly defined for Pearl Harbor attack as well.
加賀 Kaga Zeak 18 / ???, Vaal 27 / ???, Kate 27 / ??? 赤城Akagi Zeak 18 / ???, Vaal 18 / ???, Kate 27 / ???
蒼龍 Sryu, 飛龍 Hiryu 18 / ???, Vaal 18 / ???, Kate 18 / ???
瑞鶴 Zuikaku, 翔鶴 Shokaku 18 / ???, Vaal 18 / ???, Kate 18 / ???


真珠湾 飛行機供給票.jpg

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Brady
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Re: Wake Quest

Post by Brady » 17 Jan 2022 08:05

There seems to be a lot of confusion around the term, spare, Originally I had thought that these aircraft were in a disassembled state, that they were surplus to requirements, but more recently I’ve come to understand that was simply not the case, that these aircraft were actually operational and they were used on operations and they did have assigned aircrew.

My Assumption is that they are called spare aircraft because that’s how it’s translated, but the carriers were designed to operate essentially in pairs with both aircraft carriers launching strike packages simultaneously that were essentially combined, and that the doctrine that was employed was designed around the aircraft complement that was not deemed spare, so that should there be operational losses the other aircraft would be available so that the aircraft carriers can still operate at their full capacity.

Or the “spare” Aircraft would be used for scouting and patrolling missions while the main body of the aircraft complement would conduct strike operations.

This might seem something of a stretch, but given what we’ve seen so far I don’t think it’s that much of one.

The aircraft carriers did have large numbers of spare parts, including engines, propellers, entire wing sections, and numerous other spare parts.

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Re: Wake Quest

Post by Eugen Pinak » 17 Jan 2022 13:01

[/quote]
fontessa wrote:
17 Jan 2022 06:58
The below picture shows the notice on the 31st.
31日附本年内令第365号飛行機供給表及艦船飛行機搭載表中ノ通改正ス
Navy Order No.365 “Airplane supply table and ship airplane loading table” issued on 10 April 1941 was revised on the 31st.
別表第4中1AFノ部ヲ左ノ如ク改ム
1st Air Fleet part of the attached table was revised.

...
Thank you very much for those details.
I thought air group reduction for "Shokaku" class happened only after the war begun.

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Re: Wake Quest

Post by Eugen Pinak » 17 Jan 2022 13:19

Brady wrote:
17 Jan 2022 08:05
There seems to be a lot of confusion around the term, spare, Originally I had thought that these aircraft were in a disassembled state, that they were surplus to requirements, but more recently I’ve come to understand that was simply not the case, that these aircraft were actually operational and they were used on operations and they did have assigned aircrew.
If they were operational and had aircrew, they wouldnt've been called "spare".

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Re: Wake Quest

Post by Brady » 17 Jan 2022 17:39

There are a few things that are off below, but the one I am most curious about at present are the H6K2-L's and the "transports" listed under the 24 NAF transport unit.

Non of the References I have seen thus far for the Yokoaama NAG mention the H6K2-L's, if they were present what unit was operating them?

The GOSHU MARU, what was her tasking on or around the 8th of December ?

Image

The Reference I Have for the 19th NAG shows just 6 Jakes?

Image

......................

Trying to run down small craft assigned to Wake Invasion. Niehorster gives 4 aux PG (with names) and 5 "fishing boats". Other sources reference 3 "surveillance boats" and some add the 5 fishing boats. 6th Base force includes the named aux PG plus a number of AMc and PC that were probably fishing boats. Not able to pull much from troms but it does appear some of the PG were on patrol at the time of Wake. Any help here appreciated.

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Re: Wake Quest

Post by Eugen Pinak » 20 Jan 2022 11:04

Brady wrote:
17 Jan 2022 17:39
There are a few things that are off below, but the one I am most curious about at present are the H6K2-L's and the "transports" listed under the 24 NAF transport unit.
I have no idea about Niehorster's sources. But they doesn't confirmed with the official data on IJN aircraft assignments.

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