Id. warship

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Sturm78
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Id. warship

Post by Sturm78 » 21 Apr 2022 21:25

Hi all,

Any idea about this ship ?

Image from Ebay
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Canoga
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Re: Id. warship

Post by Canoga » 22 Apr 2022 11:26

Hello Sturm78,

this warship could be a proto-battlecruiser of the Ikoma class.

Regards,

Canoga

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Re: Id. warship

Post by Sturm78 » 22 Apr 2022 15:09

Canoga wrote
this warship could be a proto-battlecruiser of the Ikoma class.
Ummhhhh...I am not sure. Here an image of the Ikoma from a similar angle and I think not match....

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jbroshot
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Re: Id. warship

Post by jbroshot » 23 Apr 2022 06:18

Fuso after 1933 modernization, No. 4 turret (Q turret?) looking forward
Because of the two searchlights on top of the lattice work
based on diagrams in Anatomy of the Ship - The Battleship Fuso, by Janusz Skulski

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fontessa
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Re: Id. warship

Post by fontessa » 23 Apr 2022 09:11

jbroshot wrote:
23 Apr 2022 06:18
Fuso after 1933 modernization, No. 4 turret (Q turret?) looking forward
Because of the two searchlights on top of the lattice work
based on diagrams in Anatomy of the Ship - The Battleship Fuso, by Janusz Skulski
Something is different.
The below is Fuso tilted due to an emergency water injection test (1941). With the 1st modernization, the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th turrets were equipped with range finders. The shape of the turret also looks somewhere different.

扶桑.jpg


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fontessa
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Re: Id. warship

Post by fontessa » 23 Apr 2022 12:27

Sturm78 wrote:
22 Apr 2022 15:09
Canoga wrote
this warship could be a proto-battlecruiser of the Ikoma class.
Ummhhhh...I am not sure. Here an image of the Ikoma from a similar angle and I think not match....

Sturm78
The below photo of the same title "海軍生活 甲板掃除 Navy life deck cleaning" was probably taken on Ikoma

生駒 はがき.jpg

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tom!
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Re: Id. warship

Post by tom! » 23 Apr 2022 14:31

Hi.

Hm.

My guesses: Ibuki-Class armored cruiser or Kawachi-Class BB post-WW1.

The stamp on the postcard makes me think that The pic was taken in the early 1920th (Taisho 11 = 1923)...

Yours

tom! ;)

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Re: Id. warship

Post by Canoga » 23 Apr 2022 15:11

Gentlemen, I would thank you for this interesting debate.

Jim, I don't think this is Fuso or Yamashiro because of the two funnels and the details/pieces of the two masts forward and after the funnels.

Fontessa-san - I believe the picture "Navy life deck cleaning" was not taken on Ikoma. The warship seems to be an armored cruiser of the 6-6 Fleet.
Thank you: I need to take notes every time you post.

Sturm78 - Yes, I know some significant detail of this postcard does not match with Tsukuba and Ikoma. We can see the picture on Ikoma you have posted on Hans Lengerer and Lars Ahlberg book "Armourclad Fuso to Kongo Class Battlecruisers" (p.349).
The image was not taken on a Kongo, a Fuso or an Ise class but "we are after the 6-6 fleet and before the Kongo". This is almost certainly twin turret with two 12-in 45-cal guns. I can not see any turret with intermediate-armament such as 10-in or 20 cm guns. It is difficult to identify this warship. There are details that mach with Aki or Satsuma, and elements of the Ibuki (but not Kurama). I am not able to find strong-connection with Katori and Kashima.
Thank you for your stimulating post with little known/umknown pictures.

I see this is not crucial, but what is the date of this postcard?

Tsuruga, Japan 16.7.11 - Taisho 11? Showa 11? Showa 16? 1911? 1916?

Kind regards,

Canoga

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Re: Id. warship

Post by Canoga » 23 Apr 2022 15:21

tom! wrote:
23 Apr 2022 14:31
Hi.

Hm.

My guesses: Ibuki-Class armored cruiser or Kawachi-Class BB post-WW1.

The stamp on the postcard makes me think that The pic was taken in the early 1920th (Taisho 11 = 1923)...

Yours

tom! ;)

Settsu had tripod-masts as well as Kurama.

Thanks.

Regards,

Canoga

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tom!
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Re: Id. warship

Post by tom! » 23 Apr 2022 18:19

Hi.

Hm, non tripod without a spotlight bridge over the rear superstructure....

Satsuma Class maybe?

Image

Yours

tom! ;)

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fontessa
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Re: Id. warship

Post by fontessa » 23 Apr 2022 18:38

Canoga wrote:
23 Apr 2022 15:11
Tsuruga, Japan 16.7.11 - Taisho 11? Showa 11? Showa 16? 1911? 1916?
Ordinary Japanese read the stamp like this.
Tsuruga Post Office
July 11, 1941 (Showa 16 Nen)
Isn't the following the bottom postcard picture reused? - I don't know why the stamp is stamped on the picture. The publisher is the same 久田商店 Hisada Shoten.
I couldn't read the postmark date. The stamp was a one-sen "Kiku Stamp" (used in 1988 - 1908) with a chrysanthemum emblem in the center.


Sorry, I copied:
海軍絵はがき 元.jpg

海軍絵はがき.jpg

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fontessa
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Re: Id. warship

Post by fontessa » 03 May 2022 07:13

fontessa wrote:
23 Apr 2022 18:38
I couldn't read the postmark date. The stamp was a one-sen "Kiku Stamp" (used in 1988 - 1908) with a chrysanthemum emblem in the center.
I would correct to 1.5 sen "Kiku Stamp". “Kiku Stamp" seems to have been in circulation after 1913.

The 2nd Figure was taken on the right side of the 1st Figure. (What looks like flags is dirt, not flags.) And the 3rd Figure shows Battlecruiser Aki just after her commission in 1911. First of all, what seems to be the pillar of ① is noticeable to us. However, the positions of the boat davit in ② were different between the 1st and 2nd Figures. Furthermore, looking in the 2nd Figure, the intermediate gun turret is not found. This is a very big problem. At this time, battleships and battlecruisers of the Navy of every country were equipped with three types of guns. They were a long-range main gun, a short-range secondary gun, and an intermediate gun between them. Please see the 4th Figure, and note the boat davit position. From now on, the question arises, "Are intermediate guns necessary?" It was the famous Dreadnought battleship of the Royal Navy that abolished the intermediate guns. She has obsolete all IJN battleships and battlecruisers had been equipped with intermediate guns. IJN abolished the intermediate guns in the Post-Dreadnought or Super-Dreadnought, Kongo-class Battlecruisers. The 5th Figure shows Battlecruiser Kurama. Intermediate gun turrets were invisible from near the main gun turret because of their positioning. But she has been eliminated in this forum because of tripod masts. The shape of the bridge was also different from the 1s and 2nd Pictures.

So all the possible possibilities have disappeared. I surrender.

海軍絵はがき.jpg

海軍絵はがき 2.jpg
安岐 1.jpg

安岐 2.jpg

鞍馬.jpg

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Canoga
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Re: Id. warship

Post by Canoga » 14 May 2022 22:40

Hello Fontessa,
thanks for your observations, I really appreciate.

Studying your comments and all details of the pictures posted here and according with drawings of Hans Lengerer and Lars Ahlberg book "Armourclad Fuso to Kongo Class Battlecruisers", I can say the unknown warship of the postard is almost certainly battleship Satsuma.
It is a view from stern: the after main gun turret, the height of crows nest of the main mast comparable with height of the two funnels, the searchlights below the crows nest, the shapes and position of aft bridge close to main mast, the position of cross mast and crows nest of the foremast, the boat davit, the pillar close to main guns...

Aki had three stacks and minor details don't match with Sturm78's postcard.

Could it be battleship Satsuma in Meiji era?

Image

Image

Image

Satsuma with Vice Admiral's flag. (Kamimura Hikonojo?)

Kind regards,

Canoga

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fontessa
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Re: Id. warship

Post by fontessa » 16 May 2022 00:39

Hello Canoga,
Canoga wrote:
14 May 2022 22:40
I can say the unknown warship of the postard is almost certainly battleship Satsuma.
It is a view from stern: the after main gun turret, the height of crows nest of the main mast comparable with height of the two funnels, the searchlights below the crows nest, the shapes and position of aft bridge close to main mast, the position of cross mast and crows nest of the foremast, the boat davit, the pillar close to main guns...
Thanks for the comment. I think it makes sense to consider "view from stern". I agree. However, what I care about "Satsuma" is the position of the intermediate guns. At least the barrels may be visible beside the stern structure, as shown in Figure 2. Figure 3 is the photo of the intermediate gun I found. Compared to Fig. 4, the ship seems to be "Aki". Unfortunately, "Aki" is not the correct answer for the postcard because of the height of the stern structure and the position of the boat davit. Focusing only on the positions of the intermediate guns, as shown in Figyre5, "Kurama class battle cruiser" seems to be the farthest from the main guns. The intermediate guns may be hidden behind the stern structure. The height of the main turret and the stern structure is about the same as that of the postcard. "Kurama" was previously excluded because see had 2 tripod-mast, but the same type ship "Ibuki" had 2 single-mast. And they, battlecruisers, were "thinner" than battleships Satsuma and Aki. So their positions of intermediate gun turrets were 1.25m inside of that of battleships. With it, intermediate gun turrets would have become more difficult to see. With these, Ibukii seems to be have been the answer for the postcard. However, the position of the boat davit is too high. The position of the boat davit was also high in other battleships. I wish the height of the davit was variable. Furthermore, I feel that the structure in Fig. 1 is too complicated for a battlecruiser stern structure. I'm not going to sting your efforts. Anyway, it is a really difficult problem.


海軍絵はがき 2.jpg

薩摩.jpg

安芸 艦尾中間砲.jpg

安芸 艦形図.jpg

鞍馬伊吹 艦形図.jpg


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fontessa
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Re: Id. warship

Post by fontessa » 17 May 2022 00:47

Hello Canoga,
Canoga wrote:
14 May 2022 22:40
It is a view from stern: the after main gun turret, the height of crows nest of the main mast comparable with height of the two funnels, the searchlights below the crows nest, the shapes and position of aft bridge close to main mast, the position of cross mast and crows nest of the foremast, the boat davit, the pillar close to main guns...
I thought what you said was correct. But I reached a different conclusion. I reviewed the photos of "Aki" that were uploaded earlier in this thread. In that picture, the position of the boat davit is down. In other words, ① to ③ in Figure 1 corresponds to ① to ③ in Figure 2. I said "Aki is not the answer" by the check between the picture of the intermediate gun and the Aki ship diagram, but It was a mistake. I think that Figure 1 can be called "Aki". Thank you very much for giving me probably the correct answer.

海軍絵はがき 3.jpg

安芸 写真.jpg

*********
I am sorry, the below is correction / addition,
AKu was commissioned in 1911. As shown in Figure3, there were some changes as follows;
The position of the boat davit: ①
The structure (Watch station?) on the rear mast: ②
Figure1 ④ was maybe searchlights, but I think they were 示数盤 range clocks added after 1915.

安芸 3.jpg

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