Unknown IJN DD Missing bow

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ShindenKai
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Unknown IJN DD Missing bow

Post by ShindenKai » 10 Jun 2023 11:14

This DD is unknown to me but I'd imagine someone on here knows...
Fontessa?! Help!

Image found here https://marekj655.blogspot.com/p/fubuki ... 8.html?m=0
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ijnfleetadmiral
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Re: Unknown IJN DD Missing bow

Post by ijnfleetadmiral » 10 Jun 2023 11:31

This is HIBIKI fitted with a temporary bow, taken on 11 July 1942.
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fontessa
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Re: Unknown IJN DD Missing bow

Post by fontessa » 10 Jun 2023 11:40

ijnfleetadmiral wrote:
10 Jun 2023 11:31
This is HIBIKI fitted with a temporary bow, taken on 11 July 1942.
Agreed. She was Hibiki at Ominato Ship Yard 大湊工作部.

fontessa

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Re: Unknown IJN DD Missing bow

Post by ShindenKai » 10 Jun 2023 18:09

ijnfleetadmiral wrote:
10 Jun 2023 11:31
This is HIBIKI fitted with a temporary bow, taken on 11 July 1942.
Thank you. -I wasn't sure it was Hibiki because the other pics show the bow collapsed under the turret. Also, the twin 25mm gun platform is missing (shown in pics below). Thx again.
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Re: Unknown IJN DD Missing bow

Post by ShindenKai » 10 Jun 2023 19:06

fontessa wrote:
10 Jun 2023 11:40
ijnfleetadmiral wrote:
10 Jun 2023 11:31
This is HIBIKI fitted with a temporary bow, taken on 11 July 1942.
Agreed. She was Hibiki at Ominato Ship Yard 大湊工作部.

fontessa
Thank you Fontessa! Did they also remove the twin 25mm gun platform during the repair? Thank you again.

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Re: Unknown IJN DD Missing bow

Post by ijnfleetadmiral » 10 Jun 2023 22:49

The pics you last posted were from when she hit a mine in October 1944. The original pic you posted was taken in July 1942. So the 25-mm. gun platform wasn't added until December 1942-January 1943.
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Re: Unknown IJN DD Missing bow

Post by ShindenKai » 11 Jun 2023 00:11

ijnfleetadmiral wrote:
10 Jun 2023 22:49
The pics you last posted were from when she hit a mine in October 1944. The original pic you posted was taken in July 1942. So the 25-mm. gun platform wasn't added until December 1942-January 1943.
Ah-hah, that makes sense. Hard luck to have essentially the same damage, TWICE! Sheesh!
Thank you, IFA.

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Re: Unknown IJN DD Missing bow

Post by ijnfleetadmiral » 11 Jun 2023 05:28

ShindenKai wrote:
11 Jun 2023 00:11
Hard luck to have essentially the same damage, TWICE! Sheesh!
A tiny part of me can't help but look at it like this:

It's said that ships have spirits. HIBIKI was one of four sister ships. By the time she hit the mine in October 1944, all three of her sisters were gone. Possibly the ship herself was trying to join her sisters in death.
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Re: Unknown IJN DD Missing bow

Post by ShindenKai » 11 Jun 2023 21:03

Found a couple more pics.

The first pic seems to match the damage that was repaired in my OP pic. The second pic seems to match it as well, except for the obvious 25mm gun platform and it's obviously not floating alongside a dock...not Hibiki?
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Re: Unknown IJN DD Missing bow

Post by ijnfleetadmiral » 11 Jun 2023 21:04

ShindenKai wrote:
11 Jun 2023 21:03
The second pic seems to match it as well, except for the obvious 25mm gun platform and it's obviously not floating alongside a dock...not Hibiki?
That is most definitely NOT HIBIKI. The second pic is the wreck of destroyer HAYASHIMO (YUGUMO-class).
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Re: Unknown IJN DD Missing bow

Post by ShindenKai » 11 Jun 2023 21:05

ijnfleetadmiral wrote:
11 Jun 2023 21:04
ShindenKai wrote:
11 Jun 2023 21:03
The second pic seems to match it as well, except for the obvious 25mm gun platform and it's obviously not floating alongside a dock...not Hibiki?
That is most definitely NOT HIBIKI. The second pic is the wreck of destroyer HAYASHIMO (YUGUMO-class).
Thank you!

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Re: Unknown IJN DD Missing bow

Post by fontessa » 21 Jun 2023 00:31

ijnfleetadmiral wrote:
11 Jun 2023 21:04
ShindenKai wrote:
11 Jun 2023 21:03
The second pic seems to match it as well, except for the obvious 25mm gun platform and it's obviously not floating alongside a dock...not Hibiki?
That is most definitely NOT HIBIKI. The second pic is the wreck of destroyer HAYASHIMO (YUGUMO-class).
I think she was KIYOSHIMO.

The 2nd picture shows the outlines of YUGUMO Class destroyers. KIYOSHIMO had Machine Cannon Stand just after funnel No.1 from the time of construction. HAYASHIMO didn’t have it when she was constructed and there is no clear record of it being added during the eight months before it sank. So I think the 1st photo shows KIYOSHIMO. The white belt on funnel No. 1 indicates that KIYOSHIO took over the flagship duty of the 2nd Destroyer Division from HAYASHIO. According to ASASHIMO’s Wartime Diary, a 500lb bomb from a B-25 destroyed KIYOSHIMO's engine section after her boiler No.3 and stopped her on 23 December 1944. Unfortunately, the diary said nothing about her deformed bow. The 3rd photo shows the stranded HAYASHUO on November 12 taken by the US Navy. Note that funnel No.2 was missing completely. According to Japanese Wiki, her funnel No.2 was blown off by the bombing of the 38th Task Force airplanes on 24 October 1944. In a Japanese blog, I found another photo of “HAYASHIMO”. But, from the twisted bow and two funnels, she must have been KIYOSHIMO shown in the 1st photo.

早霜 清霜.jpg

夕雲型駆逐艦.jpg

早霜 座礁.jpg

早霜 座礁 2B.jpg

fontessa
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Re: Unknown IJN DD Missing bow

Post by ShindenKai » 22 Jun 2023 03:23

fontessa wrote:
21 Jun 2023 00:31
ijnfleetadmiral wrote:
11 Jun 2023 21:04
ShindenKai wrote:
11 Jun 2023 21:03
The second pic seems to match it as well, except for the obvious 25mm gun platform and it's obviously not floating alongside a dock...not Hibiki?
That is most definitely NOT HIBIKI. The second pic is the wreck of destroyer HAYASHIMO (YUGUMO-class).
I think she was KIYOSHIMO.

The 2nd picture shows the outlines of YUGUMO Class destroyers. KIYOSHIMO had Machine Cannon Stand just after funnel No.1 from the time of construction. HAYASHIMO didn’t have it when she was constructed and there is no clear record of it being added during the eight months before it sank. So I think the 1st photo shows KIYOSHIMO. The white belt on funnel No. 1 indicates that KIYOSHIO took over the flagship duty of the 2nd Destroyer Division from HAYASHIO. According to ASASHIMO’s Wartime Diary, a 500lb bomb from a B-25 destroyed KIYOSHIMO's engine section after her boiler No.3 and stopped her on 23 December 1944. Unfortunately, the diary said nothing about her deformed bow. The 3rd photo shows the stranded HAYASHUO on November 12 taken by the US Navy. Note that funnel No.2 was missing completely. According to Japanese Wiki, her funnel No.2 was blown off by the bombing of the 38th Task Force airplanes on 24 October 1944. In a Japanese blog, I found another photo of “HAYASHIMO”. But, from the twisted bow and two funnels, she must have been KIYOSHIMO shown in the 1st photo.

fontessa
Thank you for the extra info/insight Fontessa.

You raise valid points; the gun platforms, boiler room/funnel etc, etc. However, the short Wiki for Kiyoshimo says it was sunk, not beached/aground. The pic of the Hayashimo OR Kiyoshimo (that I thought was the Hibiki, I was wrong) shows a ship that appears to be fully aground/beached and therefore can't be Kiyoshimo. Just based on that info. Check out the angle of the rear turret from center-line and the elevation of the guns (It seems to match in all 3 pics) of the Hayashimo. Yes, the 2nd funnel/rear funnel is missing, in one of the pics but I'd wager that was the last pic taken of the Hayashimo (that we know of, published) and had possibly been bombed again, while aground and crewless, (just because it was there by an unknown Allied aircraft) OR perhaps some salvage had started taking place...?

I don't know for sure. But I also think that IJN would've mentioned the heavy bow damage as well. BUT, as you stated there is no mention of the gun platform being added either. There are obviously some gaps in the records.

My tentative guess is that it's the Hayashimo.

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Re: Unknown IJN DD Missing bow

Post by fontessa » 24 Jun 2023 21:42

ShindenKai wrote:
22 Jun 2023 03:23
fontessa wrote:
21 Jun 2023 00:31
ijnfleetadmiral wrote:
11 Jun 2023 21:04
ShindenKai wrote:
11 Jun 2023 21:03
The second pic seems to match it as well, except for the obvious 25mm gun platform and it's obviously not floating alongside a dock...not Hibiki?
That is most definitely NOT HIBIKI. The second pic is the wreck of destroyer HAYASHIMO (YUGUMO-class).
I think she was KIYOSHIMO.

The 2nd picture shows the outlines of YUGUMO Class destroyers. KIYOSHIMO had Machine Cannon Stand just after funnel No.1 from the time of construction. HAYASHIMO didn’t have it when she was constructed and there is no clear record of it being added during the eight months before it sank. So I think the 1st photo shows KIYOSHIMO. The white belt on funnel No. 1 indicates that KIYOSHIO took over the flagship duty of the 2nd Destroyer Division from HAYASHIO. According to ASASHIMO’s Wartime Diary, a 500lb bomb from a B-25 destroyed KIYOSHIMO's engine section after her boiler No.3 and stopped her on 23 December 1944. Unfortunately, the diary said nothing about her deformed bow. The 3rd photo shows the stranded HAYASHUO on November 12 taken by the US Navy. Note that funnel No.2 was missing completely. According to Japanese Wiki, her funnel No.2 was blown off by the bombing of the 38th Task Force airplanes on 24 October 1944. In a Japanese blog, I found another photo of “HAYASHIMO”. But, from the twisted bow and two funnels, she must have been KIYOSHIMO shown in the 1st photo.

fontessa
Thank you for the extra info/insight Fontessa.

You raise valid points; the gun platforms, boiler room/funnel etc, etc. However, the short Wiki for Kiyoshimo says it was sunk, not beached/aground. The pic of the Hayashimo OR Kiyoshimo (that I thought was the Hibiki, I was wrong) shows a ship that appears to be fully aground/beached and therefore can't be Kiyoshimo. Just based on that info. Check out the angle of the rear turret from center-line and the elevation of the guns (It seems to match in all 3 pics) of the Hayashimo. Yes, the 2nd funnel/rear funnel is missing, in one of the pics but I'd wager that was the last pic taken of the Hayashimo (that we know of, published) and had possibly been bombed again, while aground and crewless, (just because it was there by an unknown Allied aircraft) OR perhaps some salvage had started taking place...?

I don't know for sure. But I also think that IJN would've mentioned the heavy bow damage as well. BUT, as you stated there is no mention of the gun platform being added either. There are obviously some gaps in the records.

My tentative guess is that it's the Hayashimo.
Oh, I had overlooked that Kiyoshimo was sinking. I would like to withdraw my previous post.
I apologize for disturbing you.

According to the Japanese Wiki, Hayashimo was attacked by carrier-based aircraft of Task Force 38 while sailing alone south of Mindoro Island. The bow and funnel No.2 were blown off by the hits on the bow and the center of the ship, and the shallow waters of Semirara Island, Antique Province.

I did some research on Hayashimo.
The 1st Photo shows Hayashimo just after the construction was completed. At this time, she was equipped with Type22 RADAR. And the machine cannons platform just after funnel No.1 was not. It could be added at 101st Naval Yard in Singapore before the moving to Lingga Anchorage. Yamagumo Class destroyers were constructed at 3 shipyards - Maizuru Naval Yard, Fujita Shipyard, and Uraga Shipyard. The design details, therefore, varied from shipbuilder to shipbuilder. For example, the shape of the funnel No.1 steam pipe was different between Maizuru and Fujita/Uraga, as shown in the 1st Photo, and this can be a distinguishing point. So we can see that Photo No.2 shows Hayashimo, not Kiyoshimo. But her damages doesn’t match the description on the Japanese Wiki. Now I have one question about this photo - who took this photo and how… Was it possible to take such a clear photo from a certain altitude on a battlefield, not under the control of IJN?.. And if we look closely, the shape of funnel No.2 is unnatural, and its position is also strange – looks like it’s on the port side of the searchlight. Actually, this question arose after I found out that the "Hayashimo Photo" I posted earlier was fake. (I picked up these two pictures from the same Japanese blog.)

The bottom picture shows the front musts. Its shape changed with and without the Type22 RADAER. This was also a distinguishing point. The 3rd Photo shows the enlarged bridge part of "Hayashimo Photo" I uploaded earlier. From the shape of the forward mast (even the RADAR is not visible), it is clear that this "Hayashimo Photo" is a fake.

早霜 1.jpg

早霜 清霜 3.jpg

早霜 2.jpg

早霜 マスト 2.jpg

fontessa
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Re: Unknown IJN DD Missing bow

Post by ShindenKai » 25 Jun 2023 06:09

fontessa wrote:
24 Jun 2023 21:42
Oh, I had overlooked that Kiyoshimo was sinking. I would like to withdraw my previous post.
I apologize for disturbing you.

According to the Japanese Wiki, Hayashimo was attacked by carrier-based aircraft of Task Force 38 while sailing alone south of Mindoro Island. The bow and funnel No.2 were blown off by the hits on the bow and the center of the ship, and the shallow waters of Semirara Island, Antique Province.

I did some research on Hayashimo.
The 1st Photo shows Hayashimo just after the construction was completed. At this time, she was equipped with Type22 RADAR. And the machine cannons platform just after funnel No.1 was not. It could be added at 101st Naval Yard in Singapore before the moving to Lingga Anchorage. Yamagumo Class destroyers were constructed at 3 shipyards - Maizuru Naval Yard, Fujita Shipyard, and Uraga Shipyard. The design details, therefore, varied from shipbuilder to shipbuilder. For example, the shape of the funnel No.1 steam pipe was different between Maizuru and Fujita/Uraga, as shown in the 1st Photo, and this can be a distinguishing point. So we can see that Photo No.2 shows Hayashimo, not Kiyoshimo. But her damages doesn’t match the description on the Japanese Wiki. Now I have one question about this photo - who took this photo and how… Was it possible to take such a clear photo from a certain altitude on a battlefield, not under the control of IJN?.. And if we look closely, the shape of funnel No.2 is unnatural, and its position is also strange – looks like it’s on the port side of the searchlight. Actually, this question arose after I found out that the "Hayashimo Photo" I posted earlier was fake. (I picked up these two pictures from the same Japanese blog.)

The bottom picture shows the front musts. Its shape changed with and without the Type22 RADAER. This was also a distinguishing point. The 3rd Photo shows the enlarged bridge part of "Hayashimo Photo" I uploaded earlier. From the shape of the forward mast (even the RADAR is not visible), it is clear that this "Hayashimo Photo" is a fake.

fontessa
Fontessa, you never disturb me. I greatly appreciate everything you share with us.

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