A study in IJN destroyers

Discussions on all aspects of the Japanese Empire, from the capture of Taiwan until the end of the Second World War.
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Peter H
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Re: A study in IJN destroyers

#16

Post by Peter H » 04 Apr 2009, 11:22

I would like to emphasize that mescal's presentation of data has been much appreciated here,supported by the feedback from staff and members.Thats the main reason he was Member of the Month for February 2009.

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mescal
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Re: A study in IJN destroyers

#17

Post by mescal » 05 Apr 2009, 20:25

Thanks for the support ...

Then I'll keep feeding you with stats :D

You'll find below a breakdown of the losses of Japanese DDs according to three criteria :
The year of loss, the cause of loss and the area of loss.
The presentation is in three two-dimensionals tables for clarity reasons.

If you're interested in the global view I can try to post it here, but it's a bit large and uneasy to read.

(the grey lines & columns labelled "(vides)" are the surviving ships).
IJN_DD_loss_year_cause.jpg
IJN_DD_loss_year_cause.jpg (15.27 KiB) Viewed 1974 times
IJN_DD_losses_year_area.jpg
IJN_DD_losses_year_area.jpg (15.01 KiB) Viewed 1974 times
IJN_DDs_losses_cause_area.jpg
IJN_DDs_losses_cause_area.jpg (15.06 KiB) Viewed 1974 times
A few points can be higlighted :

* The worst year was clearly 1944 regarding the number of ship lost. However, and that's here that mere stats can be misleading, I don't think that it was the worst year for the IJN. Perhaps as soon as the end of 1942, and certainly at the end of 1943 the number of DDs was too low to fulfill all the missions which had to be carried. And especially too low relative to the huge growth of US forces.
As for the heavier units, even if the IJN was apparently a strong balanced force dy mid-44, it was actually only capable to show how to die gallantly.
* The main areas where the DDs were lost are first the south Pacific, over a protracted campaign of 18 months, and second the Philippines - but here the losses occured over less than half a year.
* The main enemy of the DDs was the aircraft, followed by the submarine, the enemy ships being only third.


As usual, all comments are welcome.
Olivier


TheGreatWent
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Re: A study in IJN destroyers

#18

Post by TheGreatWent » 21 May 2009, 02:55

* The main enemy of the DDs was the aircraft, followed by the submarine, the enemy ships being only third.


It is interesting to note that at the beginning of the war most Japanese DDs were heavily armed with 5"/50 DP type main guns (or there about) and torpedoes of various types. Some lacked depth charges although the newer DDs had them. As for AA guns they were 13 and 25mm (not including duel purpose armament) and were quickly augmented as the war imposed a respect for the power of aircraft. The nemesis of Japanese DDs was a foe that they were not designed for. This issue was not unique to Japanese design but this idea is supported by the data presented. I don't express these ideas as something new, other authors have emphasized these points, yet the work put into these graphs illustrates the toll aircraft and submarines took on the IJN DD fleet.

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Re: A study in IJN destroyers

#19

Post by Sgt. Saunders » 21 May 2009, 08:33

I for one appreciate your efforts. It's a very convenient source of information we're lucky to have it. Thanks for taking the time and trouble to put it all together.
Let me be frank however- I was rather hoping that cstunts would have made use of his considerable talents to enlighten us concerning the operations of the IJN's destroyer force. Oh well- one can always wait and hope... :D
"To send men to war without teaching them is called abandoning them"- Confucius

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mescal
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Re: A study in IJN destroyers

#20

Post by mescal » 21 May 2009, 16:15

TheGreatWent wrote: at the beginning of the war most Japanese DDs were heavily armed with 5"/50 DP type main guns
The 12.7 cm/50 "3rd Year Type" gun which equipped the bulk of the Japanese DDs at the beginning of the wra was indeed referenced as a dual purpose gun.
However, having been designed in the late 20's, it was not up to date to shoot at fast-moving aircraft of the 40's.
(and the Fubukis' mount had only a +40° Max elevation)
The slow training rate of the mount was a fatal flaw with respect to antiaircraft fire.

AFAIK, they were not really counted as an AA gun by Japanese doctrine -- cf. for example the AA disposition of the fleet : at the beginning of the war the IJN adopted loose formation, increasing the manoeuver possibilities to avoid bombs, at the expense of mutual fire protection, whereas the USN went the opposite way.
Olivier

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Takao
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Re: A study in IJN destroyers

#21

Post by Takao » 24 May 2009, 01:37

IT was so much a problem with the gun as it was the gun mount/turret. The first 9 Fubuki's were equipped with the "Type A" turret that only elevated to +40 degrees and was considered a single purpose gun, the 10th and later Fubuki's mounted the "Type B" turret that was capable of +75 degrees elevation. Two other 12.7cm/50 turrets mounted on later destroyers were the "Type C" capable of +55 degrees elevation and the "Type D" capable of 75 degrees elevation.

As Mescal has mentioned the mounts had a slow rate of train, making them less effective against fast moving targets. Also, the turrets lacked power rammers which reduced their high-angle rate of fire. The Japanese themselves acknowledged the ineffectiveness of the low-angle turrets by mid-war. Most, if not all, surviving destroyers with the low-angle turrets lost one of the after turrets and had two triple 25mm turrets mounted in its place.

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNJAP_5-50_3ns.htm

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