Suggest references on Japanese at-sea refueling?

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OpanaPointer
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Suggest references on Japanese at-sea refueling?

#1

Post by OpanaPointer » 18 Sep 2011, 20:37

In The Pacific War Papers: Japanese Documents of World War II, p. 73, in an item by Ozawa Jisaburo entitled "Development of the Japanese Navy's Operational Concept against America", there is mention that the IJN started working on underway refueling as early as 1927 and came into general usage in or about 1934.

Any recommendations for sources on this? I'd prefer English if available.

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Re: Suggest references on Japanese at-sea refueling?

#2

Post by kgbudge » 19 Sep 2011, 02:20

Wildenberg (1996) Gray Steel and Black Oil: Fast Tankers and Replenishment at Sea in the U.S. Navy, 1912-1995 very briefly discusses Japanese practice, mostly for comparison with the U.S. Navy. I'd love to have a better source myself.


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Re: Suggest references on Japanese at-sea refueling?

#3

Post by cstunts » 20 Sep 2011, 21:19

As the Japanese were considered pioneers in the development of the fast tanker fleet, it stands to reason they had also adopted unreps practice. While it is one thing to say the IJN had unreps capability, it's another to say it was successfully implemented, or did not require extensive improvements...For some enlightening wartime comments on problems encountered in First Stage ops--in English--see the relevant Pearl Harbor Attack hearings volume.

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Re: Suggest references on Japanese at-sea refueling?

#4

Post by OpanaPointer » 20 Sep 2011, 21:55

cstunts wrote:As the Japanese were considered pioneers in the development of the fast tanker fleet, it stands to reason they had also adopted unreps practice. While it is one thing to say the IJN had unreps capability, it's another to say it was successfully implemented, or did not require extensive improvements...For some enlightening wartime comments on problems encountered in First Stage ops--in English--see the relevant Pearl Harbor Attack hearings volume.
Um, can you give me a better clue? There are thirty-nine volumes of testimony and exhibits. :cry:
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Re: Suggest references on Japanese at-sea refueling?

#5

Post by OpanaPointer » 20 Sep 2011, 22:09

Ah, thanks for the memory jog. Vol. 13, starting on page 605 gives details on Kido Butai's refueling. http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/congress/

Still hoping for the developmental history of the doctrines.

ETA: See also pages 658-662

BTW, interesting information at p. 707 on.
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Re: Suggest references on Japanese at-sea refueling?

#6

Post by cstunts » 20 Sep 2011, 23:32

I believe the earlier volume PEARL HARBOR PAPERS has some good details in English on IJN unreps, but truthfully after the First Stage ops, it didn't much matter...Although tankers/oilers would've been 'nice' to have w/Kurita's center force at Leyte, for example, they would have been easy meat for our air forces.
I do not believe any very detailed exmination of IJN 'doctrine' has been authored in English--Perhaps some wartime ATIS docs or some such exist?

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Re: Suggest references on Japanese at-sea refueling?

#7

Post by OpanaPointer » 20 Sep 2011, 23:53

cstunts wrote:I believe the earlier volume PEARL HARBOR PAPERS has some good details in English on IJN unreps, but truthfully after the First Stage ops, it didn't much matter...Although tankers/oilers would've been 'nice' to have w/Kurita's center force at Leyte, for example, they would have been easy meat for our air forces.
I do not believe any very detailed exmination of IJN 'doctrine' has been authored in English--Perhaps some wartime ATIS docs or some such exist?
IIRC, the Pearl Harbor Papers were largely extracted from the Hearings.
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Re: Suggest references on Japanese at-sea refueling?

#8

Post by cstunts » 21 Sep 2011, 03:59

Hello,

"IIRC, the Pearl Harbor Papers were largely extracted from the Hearings."

Not to argue, but I don't believe so. There's a wealth of firsthand stuff in the book--the success of which led to the publication of the PACIFIC WAR PAPERS--that came well after the PH Attack Hearings. Far more, in fact.

I don't know why I mentioned the (arguable) uselessness of Japanese oilers after the First Stage ops anyway. That's probably a can of worms I do not wish to open.

I could undoubtedly find material in Japan pertaining to the matter, but translations are very expensive. That is, I have a good contact (among others) with a Japanese university profesor whose area of expertise is the oil industry/IJN nexus, with specific emphasis on Japan's desperate (& unsuccessful) synthetic oil program(s)...An area integral to her decision--or its rationalizations, I should say--to go to war in the first place.
It is almost imposible to read any accounts from the war as written by IJN participants that do not stress the primacy of fuel...It was, from the outset--and before--a constant concern. Many of the frenetic 11th hour calculations done by IJN policy leaders in the summer and fall of 1941 had to do with 1) fuel stocks 2) shipping bottoms 3) tanker/oiler construction and conversions.

FWIW

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Re: Suggest references on Japanese at-sea refueling?

#9

Post by OpanaPointer » 21 Sep 2011, 14:02

I'll have to dig out my copy of the PHP. I've not looked at it for years.

Agreed on the translations, but this has inspired a friend to start working on some source material for a book in English.

Did you get a chance to look at the material in the Hearings?
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Re: Suggest references on Japanese at-sea refueling?

#10

Post by cstunts » 21 Sep 2011, 18:51

Hello,

Yes, I am quite familiar with the contents of that Part of the PH Attack Hearings. Some very good (tho' often misanalyzed) material there.
But the unreps stuff is not critical to my research...

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Re: Suggest references on Japanese at-sea refueling?

#11

Post by OpanaPointer » 21 Sep 2011, 23:58

cstunts wrote:Hello,

Yes, I am quite familiar with the contents of that Part of the PH Attack Hearings. Some very good (tho' often misanalyzed) material there.
But the unreps stuff is not critical to my research...
When you have the time can you give me a capsule of the ways the information is not analyzed properly? The PHA is something of a hobby of mine.
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"Hidden in Plain Sight" jewels in PHA

#12

Post by cstunts » 22 Sep 2011, 05:38

"When you have the time can you give me a capsule of the ways the information is not analyzed properly? The PHA is something of a hobby of mine."

Oh sure...as soon as they perfect the 36-hour day. But, here is a sukoshi clue: PacWar historians from 1957 to 1995 have perpetuated some of these errors. :? Innocently enough, but...

I'd like to (not) say more, but "O Time, Strength, Cash, and Patience!"

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Re: Suggest references on Japanese at-sea refueling?

#13

Post by robdab » 22 Sep 2011, 22:28

"Kaigun" by Peattie & Evans has some information on the development of IJN underway refueling and is mostly available in preview form at books.google.com.

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Re: Suggest references on Japanese at-sea refueling?

#14

Post by Rob Stuart » 23 Sep 2011, 16:43

Was the IJN able to resupply its carriers with anything other than fuel for their boilers while at sea? To put it another way, if the carriers ran low in fuel or ammo for their planes, did they have to return to an achorage to be resupplied?


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Re: Suggest references on Japanese at-sea refueling?

#15

Post by robdab » 23 Sep 2011, 18:20

.
Rob Stuart wrote:Was the IJN able to resupply its carriers with anything other than fuel for their boilers while at sea? To put it another way, if the carriers ran low in fuel or ammo for their planes, did they have to return to an achorage to be resupplied?
I've looked long and hard for any such info but other than avgas from tankers too and replacement warplanes (with extra crewmen and ordnance carried) ferried in from nearby land bases, I haven't found any such reports of IJN underway replenishment. Some small items might have been passed from those tankers as the refueling was going on but again, I have found no reports of that happening historically.

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