Germany and Japan

Discussions on all aspects of the Japanese Empire, from the capture of Taiwan until the end of the Second World War.
Post Reply
User avatar
Soldat84
Member
Posts: 65
Joined: 27 Mar 2003, 12:19
Location: Marseille, France

Germany and Japan

#1

Post by Soldat84 » 15 Apr 2003, 10:26

I have a few questions about the relationship between Germany and Japan during the Second World War:

1. How come Nazi Germany is willing to cooperate with Imperial Japan? Sure, they were both Fascist governments, but the Japanese weren't exactly... "Aryan"...

2. I've read an article in a local newspaper about German U-Boats in South East Asia to fetch supplies or something like that. Did the U-Boats help the Imperial Navy in the Pacific?

3. I also saw in a documentary once that Japan and Germany wanted to take over the Soviet Union so that they can use the Trans-Siberian Railway to send resources from Asia to Europe and vice-versa (once again, if I'm not mistaken). If so, why did Japan waste time in China? I know that they invaded the European colonies in South East Asia to "liberate Asia from the European powers." But why China? They kicked the Russian Imperial Navy's behind back in 1905, why didn't they attack the USSR straight away?

User avatar
Gott
Member
Posts: 1162
Joined: 10 Jul 2002, 22:49
Location: Asia

Re: Germany and Japan

#2

Post by Gott » 15 Apr 2003, 15:17

Soldat84 wrote:I have a few questions about the relationship between Germany and Japan during the Second World War:

1. How come Nazi Germany is willing to cooperate with Imperial Japan? Sure, they were both Fascist governments, but the Japanese weren't exactly... "Aryan"...

2. I've read an article in a local newspaper about German U-Boats in South East Asia to fetch supplies or something like that. Did the U-Boats help the Imperial Navy in the Pacific?

3. I also saw in a documentary once that Japan and Germany wanted to take over the Soviet Union so that they can use the Trans-Siberian Railway to send resources from Asia to Europe and vice-versa (once again, if I'm not mistaken). If so, why did Japan waste time in China? I know that they invaded the European colonies in South East Asia to "liberate Asia from the European powers." But why China? They kicked the Russian Imperial Navy's behind back in 1905, why didn't they attack the USSR straight away?
1. Germany needed someone to supply them raw materials in Asia. Most of Asia was ruled by European nations (in your case, Indonesia ruled by the Netherlands) which Germany needed to go to war with. As Japan will invade European colonies in Asia, Germany could directly be supplied with raw materials from Japan.

Years prior to the war, Germany's main priority was to win the future war and not to eliminate Jews. Finding an ally which would benefit Germany's war plans was more important until the 'Final Solution' came in place.

2. The Kriegsmarine did not directly engaged in battles with the Americans in the Pacific. They were there mainly as observers, attaches, and to ship raw materials to Germany.

3. Japan had no plans to invade the Soviet Union since the areas they will fight would be Siberia. Nothing there is strategic to the Japanese war effort. Their focus was to fight the Americans in the Pacific and defending what they have taken in China.


daveh
Member
Posts: 1439
Joined: 11 Feb 2003, 19:14
Location: uk

#3

Post by daveh » 15 Apr 2003, 15:37

For U boats aiding the IJN try
uboat.net aerticle on the Monsun boats

Supplies from the Japanese:
see Axis Blockade Runners of WW2 by M Brice ISBN 0 87021 908 1
and
http://www.wlb-stuttgart.de/seekrieg/km/blbr.htm.

The Japanese army suffered a great defeat at the hands of the Russian army at Khalkin Gol and the IJA was certainly not up to the task of dealing with the more mechanised and better equipped russian army under most circumstances. Any attack by the Japanese against Rusia would probably have at best stalled and at worst led to further crippling defeats. The fact that the IJN would have crushed the Russian Pacific fleet would have made litle difference to the land campaign.

User avatar
Soldat84
Member
Posts: 65
Joined: 27 Mar 2003, 12:19
Location: Marseille, France

#4

Post by Soldat84 » 17 Apr 2003, 09:19

Actually, I've read in a book about the Japanese occupation of Indonesia, it's says that, Indonesian volunteers known as PETA (Pembela Tanah Air - Homeland Defenders/Defence) were about to be sent to counter the Soviets after Germany's defeat in Europe and the Soviet declaration of war against Japan sometime in mid-1945. Luckily, Japan was defeated by early August and the volunteers were never sent to fight against the USSR.
I agree that the Soviets had better armor than the Japanese (duh!), but Russia was caught by surprise by the Wehrmacht, remember? If Japan invaded the USSR instead of the US on "that fateful day" in 1941, the Soviets would neck high in... I mean, China was anti-European during the late 19th century and early 20th century (ie. The Opium Wars, The Boxer Rebellion, 10-10-1910). I bet that if Imperial Japan made the Republic of China its ally, instead of its enemy, things in Asia would be alot different. Too bad about the Sino-Japanese wars... :?
One more thing, if Japan did have naval superiority over the Soviets, at least they would've occupied Kamchatka while the Soviets are occupied in the west with the Wehrmacht. At least according to my imagination... :)

User avatar
Gott
Member
Posts: 1162
Joined: 10 Jul 2002, 22:49
Location: Asia

#5

Post by Gott » 17 Apr 2003, 09:47

Soldat84 wrote:Actually, I've read in a book about the Japanese occupation of Indonesia, it's says that, Indonesian volunteers known as PETA (Pembela Tanah Air - Homeland Defenders/Defence) were about to be sent to counter the Soviets after Germany's defeat in Europe and the Soviet declaration of war against Japan sometime in mid-1945. Luckily, Japan was defeated by early August and the volunteers were never sent to fight against the USSR.
I agree that the Soviets had better armor than the Japanese (duh!), but Russia was caught by surprise by the Wehrmacht, remember? If Japan invaded the USSR instead of the US on "that fateful day" in 1941, the Soviets would neck high in... I mean, China was anti-European during the late 19th century and early 20th century (ie. The Opium Wars, The Boxer Rebellion, 10-10-1910). I bet that if Imperial Japan made the Republic of China its ally, instead of its enemy, things in Asia would be alot different. Too bad about the Sino-Japanese wars... :?
One more thing, if Japan did have naval superiority over the Soviets, at least they would've occupied Kamchatka while the Soviets are occupied in the west with the Wehrmacht. At least according to my imagination... :)
That's an interesting info about the Indonesian troops.

After Japan invaded Manchuria in 1931, the Chinese public became less and less anti-western. Especially after 1937 where the Chinese knew that if China allies with the West, the country would be saved. Japan on the other hand was way more anti-west than China.

As far as I know, if Japan was to really invade the Soviet Union, the farthest they would do is to take over the northern half of Sakhalin. The very reason for Japan to become expansionist is because they wanted vast resources in SE Asia, not snow in Siberia. However, had Japan invaded the Soviet Union instead of declaring war on US, then the Axis would defeat the USSR easily.

ChristopherPerrien
Member
Posts: 7051
Joined: 26 Dec 2002, 01:58
Location: Mississippi

Strange bedfellows

#6

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 17 Apr 2003, 20:09

The old saying "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" explains it best.
It was suprising to see the "master race" cooperating with those sub- humans--- This is how both parties the Nipponese and the Germans looked at each other. I would like to have heard some of the "candid" conversations by the leaders of either about their "allies".

User avatar
Trommelfeuer
Member
Posts: 403
Joined: 31 Mar 2003, 16:40
Location: Hamburg, Germany

....

#7

Post by Trommelfeuer » 17 Apr 2003, 21:00

Image
...U-234 departed Kiel on its maiden voyage on 25 March 1945, bound for Kristiansand, Norway. There it loaded important cargo and personnel and departed on 15 April for a submerged voyage which was to take them around the Cape of Good Hope, eventually concluding in Japan. That transit was never completed.

Among the three hundred ton cargo was three complete Messerschmitt aircraft, a Henschel HS-293 glider-bomb, extra Junkers jet engines, and ten canisters containing 560 kg (1,235 lbs.) of uranium oxide (U235). The uranium oxide was to be used by the Japanese as a catalyst for the production of synthetic methanol used for aviation fuel. Other cargo consisted of one ton of diplomatic mail and 6,615 pounds of technical material including drawings of ME 163 and ME 262 aircraft, plans for the building of aircraft factories, V-1 and V-2 weapons, naval ships (destroyers of classes 36C and Z51, and M and S boats), and submarines (Types II, VII, IX, X, XI, XXI, and XXIII). German fire-control computers, Lorenz 7H2 bombsights, Lufte 7D bombsight computers, FUG 200 Hohehtweil airborne radars and bomb fuses were also included in the manifest along with other military equipment and personal luggage...
Image
...The actual loading of U-234 and the type of cargo she was to carry was determined by a special commission formed in December, 1944. At this time, it was made known to the officers of U-234 that they were to go to Japan. The special commission known as the “Marine Sonder Dienst Auslands”, headed by K.K. Becker, was in charge of all details and determined what cargo was to be carried. Klt. Longbein from this commission was the actual loading officer. Loading containers were designed of the same diameter as the vertical mine shafts and were loaded in the shafts and held in place by the original mine releasing mechanism. The four compartments, two on either side, were loaded with horizontal tubes, (these tubes were originally above deck torpedo containers and were merely shortened somewhat and used as cargo containers). U-234 then carried six cargo containers in the mine shafts forward and amidships; six vertical containers in the mine shafts on either side, and in each of the four cargo spaces were eight horizontally placed cargo tubes. Four cargo containers, two on either side, were carried topside. The ship’s officers estimated that 240 tons of cargo were aboard in addition to fuel and provisions for a six to nine month’s trip...
I wonder how the Japanese recieved the manuals and the Walter HWK 109-509 rocket-engine to be able to build the J8M Shusui Sword Stroke (Komet) , was there another U-boat for this job? :idea: ?

Image
During the war, Japanese military attaches in Germany were aware of the existence of the Messerschmitt Me 163B Komet rocket-powered interceptor, and in late 1943 Japan arranged to purchase a license for manufacture of the Komet. For the sum of 20 million Reichmarks, Japan also purchased the manufacturing rights to the Walter HWK 109-509 rocket engine together with one completed example.


Nakajima Kikka (orange blossom) ...also looks somehow familiar... ;-)
Image
The reports on the progress of the Me 262 received from the Japanese air attache in Berlin led the Naval Staff in September 1944 to instruct the Nakajima Hikoki K.K. to design a single-seat twin-jet attack fighter based on the Me 262. Requirements included a maximum speed of 431 mph, a range of 127 miles with a 1100-pound bomb load or 173 miles with a 551 lb bombload. The takeoff run was to be no longer than 1150 feet when using two 992 lb.s.t. RATOG bottles. Provisions were to be made for the aircraft to have folding wings in order that it be able to be hidden in caves and tunnels. An emphasis was to be made on the ease of production of the aircraft by unskilled labor.
MFG, Sven

User avatar
Gott
Member
Posts: 1162
Joined: 10 Jul 2002, 22:49
Location: Asia

#8

Post by Gott » 18 Apr 2003, 07:50

Thanks Trommelfeuer, that is very interesting. But as far as I know, the Japanese insisted on saying their Shusui and Kikka was built with minimal German assistance. Lies, would you say?

User avatar
Trommelfeuer
Member
Posts: 403
Joined: 31 Mar 2003, 16:40
Location: Hamburg, Germany

...

#9

Post by Trommelfeuer » 18 Apr 2003, 14:11

....Unshaken by the dangerous nature of the Me163, the Japanese swiftly entered into negotiations for the licenses to manufacture the Me163B and the Walter HWK 509A rocket engine. The engine license itself cost the Japanese 20 million Reichsmarks. Germany was to provide the following by March 1, 1944:

* Complete blueprints of the Me163B and the HWK 509A engine

* One complete Me163B, two sets of sub-assemblies and components

* Three complete HWK 509A engines

* Maintain contact with the Japanese military attache in Berlin, informing them of any improvements and developments in the Me163 program so that they could be incorporated into the Japanese version

* Allow the Japanese to study the manufacturing processes for both the Me163 and the HWK engine

* Allow the Japanese to study Luftwaffe operational procedures for the Me163

Two submarines were readied to carry the complete Me163B, the HWK motor, blueprints, and other technical information. Of the two submarines, one was sunk enroute, taking with it the Me163B, blueprints, and the other data needed for its manufacture. This left only a basic instructional manual on the Me163B in the hands of naval mission member Cdr. Eiichi Iwaya who rode in the other submarine with the HWK engine.
source:

Image



....Cdr Kinashi travels to Berlin. Adolf Hitler presents him with the Iron Cross, 2nd Class for sinking the USS WASP.

Meanwhile during her stay, four Japanese Type 96 25-mm AA guns are removed from the I-29 and replaced by a German 37-mm Krupp AA gun and one quad 20-mm Mauser 'Flakvierling'. The I-29 embarks 18 passengers (including four Germans) and takes on an HWK 509A-1 rocket motor used on the Me-163 "Komet" interceptor and a Jumo 004B engine used on the Me-262 jet fighter.

16 April 1944:
The I-29 departs Lorient, escorted by seven M-class minesweepers. She carries drawings of the Isotta-Fraschini torpedo boat engine, a V-1 "buzz bomb" fuselage, TMC acoustic mines, bauxite and mercury-radium amalgam.*****.

Technical Cdr Iwaya Eiichi carries blueprints of the Messerschmitt Me-163 "Komet" rocket interceptor and the Me-262 jet fighter and Captain Matsui is in possession of plans for rocket launch accelerators. The officers also carry plans for a glider bomb and radar equipment. Twenty "Enigma" coding machines are included in the cargo.

26 July 1944:
Western entrance of the Balintang Channel, Luzon Strait. About 1700, the SAWFISH sights the I-29 running on the surface at 17 knots. Cdr Alan B. Banister fires four torpedoes at the I-29. Lookouts spot the incoming torpedoes. Cdr Kinashi attempts to comb their wakes, but three torpedoes hit and sink the I-29 almost immediately at 20-10N, 121-55E.

Three of the I-29's crewmen are blown overboard. Only one survivor manages to swim ashore to a "small Philippine island" and reports the loss. Cdr Kinashi, Japan's leading submarine "Ace", is among the 105 crewmen and passengers that are lost. He is honored by a rare two-rank promotion to Rear Admiral, posthumously.

The loss of the German aircraft aboard the I-29 slows the Japanese jet program greatly, but their blueprints, flown to Tokyo, arrive safely. They are used immediately to develop the Nakajima Kikka ("Orange Blossom") based on the Me-262 and the Mitsubishi J8MI Shusui ("Sword Stroke") based on the Me-163...

source
Image


So, there were many parts on the way to Japan, but they never reached their destination because of the losses of german U-boat U-234 and japanese imperial U-boat HIJMS Submarine I-29.... :cry:

MFG, Sven
Last edited by Trommelfeuer on 18 Apr 2003, 15:13, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Gott
Member
Posts: 1162
Joined: 10 Jul 2002, 22:49
Location: Asia

#10

Post by Gott » 18 Apr 2003, 14:20

That is again a very interesting piece of info, thanks.

User avatar
Trommelfeuer
Member
Posts: 403
Joined: 31 Mar 2003, 16:40
Location: Hamburg, Germany

:-)

#11

Post by Trommelfeuer » 18 Apr 2003, 17:04

Here's another good source about Japanese / German relationship :
Image
"And when we have fought from the Black to Yellow Seas, then we shall embrace our friends the Japanese."
MFG, Sven

Panzermahn
Member
Posts: 3639
Joined: 13 Jul 2002, 04:51
Location: Malaysia

#12

Post by Panzermahn » 19 Apr 2003, 05:39

what about waffen ss troops originated or borned or had mixtured with indonesians in the dutch waffen ss legion nederland or landstorm nederland?

had anyone hear about this?

User avatar
Napoli
Member
Posts: 224
Joined: 02 Oct 2002, 14:23
Location: Adelaide, Australia

#13

Post by Napoli » 20 Apr 2003, 05:04

That last photo also shows the Italian house of Savoy emblem flag along side Japanese and Nazi.
More than likely just a propaganda photo.

User avatar
Cantankerous
Member
Posts: 1277
Joined: 01 Sep 2019, 22:22
Location: Newport Coast

Re:

#14

Post by Cantankerous » 16 Aug 2020, 17:53

Gott wrote:
18 Apr 2003, 07:50
Thanks Trommelfeuer, that is very interesting. But as far as I know, the Japanese insisted on saying their Shusui and Kikka was built with minimal German assistance. Lies, would you say?
The Imperial Japanese Navy intended for the J8M Shusui to use the existing design of the Me 163 Komet, while the Imperial Japanese Army Air Force wanted a new rocket fighter design to be drawn up, so the IJA rocket fighter proposed by Mitsubishi, the Ki-200, differed from the Shusui in having two Type 5 cannons. The Kikka and the Ki-201 Karyu both drew up on German documentation for the Me 262, but the two differed in the engines, weight, and size. The Karyu had the same design configuraton as the Me 262, being powered by a license-built version of the Jumo 004B turbojet that powered the Me 262, but the Kikka differed from the Me 262 in being powered by a derivative of the BMW 003 that was being developed for the He 162 Spatz jet fighter, the Ju 287 FSW jet bomber, and Ar 234C medium bomber, but also in that it was smaller, the wings and tailplane being straight, and smaller size.

References:

Dyer, Edward M. III, 2009. Japanese Secret Projects: Experimental Aircraft of the IJA and IJN 1939-1945. Hinckley, UK: Midland Publishing. ISBN 978-1-85780-317-4.
Francillon, René J., 1970. Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War. London, Putnam & Company (Second edition 1979). ISBN 0-370-30251-6.
Mikesh, Robert C., 1979. Kikka, Monogram Close-Up 19. Boston, Massachusetts: Monogram Aviation Publications. ISBN 0-914144-19-7.

Post Reply

Return to “Japan at War 1895-1945”