Hello everyone, I am currently writing an article for my blog on Japanese armored cars. I am interested in the use of these armored cars during the two battles of Shanghai. Can you help me on some questions please:
- If I understood correctly what I read on other messages, the creation of SNLF dates from October 1932, until this date they are only NLF taken from ships.
- Question: do the NLF have self armored cars already attached or not?
- Question: was there a guard detachment stationed in the Japanese concession on shore? army or navy? with machine guns or not?
- indeed it seems when looking at the photos that the Vickers Crossley of 1932 are khaki, they have the army flag and not the navy on the sides of the body. The turret is circled in white. They are numbered from 1 to 9 on the photos which corresponds to the 12 ordered minus two sent to tianjin and one to the Kwantung army. So we can assume that these Vickers crossley were supplied to the NLF during the Shanghai incident by the Army and that they did not belong to the Navy.
- Question: is that correct?
We find these Vickers Crossley later gray with the navy flag on the sides and a maximum of eight in the photos, we know that there were vehicles lost during the fighting.
- Question: was a Vickers Crossley lost in combat?
Concerning the Sumida type 2590 naval P, it seems that they were ordered by the navy. In the photos, they bear the navy flag on the sides.
- Question: what is their background? were they used in Shanghai in 1932? were they stationed in Shanghai or were they brought by boat to reinforce the troops?
Thank you for your answers
hubert lopez
japanese armored cars during the two battles of Shangaï
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hubertlopez
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Akira Takizawa
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Re: japanese armored cars during the two battles of Shangaï
- If I understood correctly what I read on other messages, the creation of SNLF dates from October 1932, until this date they are only NLF taken from ships.
Since 1930, Navy landing force was always stationed at Shanghai. But, since 1926, Navy force was already stationed at Shanghai, thought they were called guard unit and its HQ was called Navy club.
- Question: do the NLF have self armored cars already attached or not?
Vickers Crossley was deployed at Shanghai since 1928.
- Question: was there a guard detachment stationed in the Japanese concession on shore? army or navy? with machine guns or not?
NLF was stationed. Of course, they had machine guns.
- indeed it seems when looking at the photos that the Vickers Crossley of 1932 are khaki, they have the army flag and not the navy on the sides of the body.
No, Navy flag was painted.
> The turret is circled in white. They are numbered from 1 to 9 on the photos which corresponds to the 12 ordered minus two sent to tianjin and one to the Kwantung army. So we can assume that these Vickers crossley were supplied to the NLF during the Shanghai incident by the Army and that they did not belong to the Navy.
They were imported by IJN.
- Question: is that correct?
We find these Vickers Crossley later gray with the navy flag on the sides and a maximum of eight in the photos, we know that there were vehicles lost during the fighting.
No, they were still in khaki.
- Question: was a Vickers Crossley lost in combat?
No. But, some were damaged.
Concerning the Sumida type 2590 naval P, it seems that they were ordered by the navy. In the photos, they bear the navy flag on the sides.
Type 2590 is wrong. It is Sumida Model P. Sumida Model P was donated by Japanese people to IJN.
- Question: what is their background?
After Manchuria Incident happened, Japanese people enthused and donated money to send weapons to army and navy. Sumida Model P armored cars was made by the donation of Japanese people.
> were they used in Shanghai in 1932?
Sumida Model P was donated to IJN in July 1932. Until that time, Shanghai Incident has already ended.
Taki
Since 1930, Navy landing force was always stationed at Shanghai. But, since 1926, Navy force was already stationed at Shanghai, thought they were called guard unit and its HQ was called Navy club.
- Question: do the NLF have self armored cars already attached or not?
Vickers Crossley was deployed at Shanghai since 1928.
- Question: was there a guard detachment stationed in the Japanese concession on shore? army or navy? with machine guns or not?
NLF was stationed. Of course, they had machine guns.
- indeed it seems when looking at the photos that the Vickers Crossley of 1932 are khaki, they have the army flag and not the navy on the sides of the body.
No, Navy flag was painted.
> The turret is circled in white. They are numbered from 1 to 9 on the photos which corresponds to the 12 ordered minus two sent to tianjin and one to the Kwantung army. So we can assume that these Vickers crossley were supplied to the NLF during the Shanghai incident by the Army and that they did not belong to the Navy.
They were imported by IJN.
- Question: is that correct?
We find these Vickers Crossley later gray with the navy flag on the sides and a maximum of eight in the photos, we know that there were vehicles lost during the fighting.
No, they were still in khaki.
- Question: was a Vickers Crossley lost in combat?
No. But, some were damaged.
Concerning the Sumida type 2590 naval P, it seems that they were ordered by the navy. In the photos, they bear the navy flag on the sides.
Type 2590 is wrong. It is Sumida Model P. Sumida Model P was donated by Japanese people to IJN.
- Question: what is their background?
After Manchuria Incident happened, Japanese people enthused and donated money to send weapons to army and navy. Sumida Model P armored cars was made by the donation of Japanese people.
> were they used in Shanghai in 1932?
Sumida Model P was donated to IJN in July 1932. Until that time, Shanghai Incident has already ended.
Taki
Last edited by Akira Takizawa on 18 Apr 2020, 17:18, edited 5 times in total.
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hubertlopez
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Re: japanese armored cars during the two battles of Shangaï
Thank you very much Taki for your answers, I know well your excellent site. I have some precisions to ask if possible
you said: "Vickers Crossley was deployed at Shanghai since 1928". Do you mean the NINE Crossley were already in Shangaï ?
I have read that there was a Shangaï guard detachment of NLF troops about 750 men with an armored company of armored cars (I suppose the crossley ?) is it true ?
you said: "no navy flag was painted" but we can see on several photos the flag with the sun centered, is it not the army flag ?
you said: " no they were still in khaki" do you mean the color grey was never used ?
thank you for your answers
best regards
hubert
you said: "Vickers Crossley was deployed at Shanghai since 1928". Do you mean the NINE Crossley were already in Shangaï ?
I have read that there was a Shangaï guard detachment of NLF troops about 750 men with an armored company of armored cars (I suppose the crossley ?) is it true ?
you said: "no navy flag was painted" but we can see on several photos the flag with the sun centered, is it not the army flag ?
you said: " no they were still in khaki" do you mean the color grey was never used ?
thank you for your answers
best regards
hubert
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Akira Takizawa
- Member
- Posts: 3373
- Joined: 26 Feb 2006, 18:37
- Location: Japan
- Contact:
Re: japanese armored cars during the two battles of Shangaï
> you said: "Vickers Crossley was deployed at Shanghai since 1928". Do you mean the NINE Crossley were already in Shangaï ?
Yes, they have already existed at Shanghai when Shanghai Incident happened.
> I have read that there was a Shangaï guard detachment of NLF troops about 750 men with an armored company of armored cars (I suppose the crossley ?) is it true ?
Yes. When Shanghai Incident happened, NLF was stationed at Shanghai and they had Vickers Crossley.
> you said: "no navy flag was painted" but we can see on several photos the flag with the sun centered, is it not the army flag ?
First, a flag was painted in such a style on Vickers Crossley. But, it is also navy flag. See below. "JAPANESE NAVY" is written on registration plate.
IJA never painted rising sun flag on vehicle. Only navy painted it. So, it is IJN flag.
> you said: " no they were still in khaki" do you mean the color grey was never used ?
They were never painted in gray.
Taki
Yes, they have already existed at Shanghai when Shanghai Incident happened.
> I have read that there was a Shangaï guard detachment of NLF troops about 750 men with an armored company of armored cars (I suppose the crossley ?) is it true ?
Yes. When Shanghai Incident happened, NLF was stationed at Shanghai and they had Vickers Crossley.
> you said: "no navy flag was painted" but we can see on several photos the flag with the sun centered, is it not the army flag ?
First, a flag was painted in such a style on Vickers Crossley. But, it is also navy flag. See below. "JAPANESE NAVY" is written on registration plate.
IJA never painted rising sun flag on vehicle. Only navy painted it. So, it is IJN flag.
> you said: " no they were still in khaki" do you mean the color grey was never used ?
They were never painted in gray.
Taki
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hubertlopez
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Re: japanese armored cars during the two battles of Shangaï
Thank you very much mr Takizawa
best regards
hubert lopez
best regards
hubert lopez
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hubertlopez
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- Posts: 32
- Joined: 21 May 2009, 06:51
- Location: france
Re: japanese armored cars during the two battles of Shangaï
Hello friends, I have writen an article about the Sumida P armored cars during the battles of Shangaï. This was done from a chinese site but I am conspicuous about some facts. Mr Takizawa already corrected some mistakes but there may be others. can you correct me if something looks wrong please especially about the numbers of the vehicles and colors.
"These vehicles arrived in Shangaï in july 1932 too late to take part to the first battle of Shangaï but several photos show them during the Battle of Shanghai in 1937. Note that the #1 was damaged in the battle.
In Japan as in other countries, the populations could finance the construction of vehicles for the army or the navy, which was the case for sumida P. These were two associations designated Hokoku for the navy and Aikoku for the army which dealt with this task. This is what we see as an inscription on the sides of the body, this is also why this vehicle is sometimes incorrectly designated Hokoku type. Vehicle # 1 was funded by the city of Nagaoka.
In 1932, there was an armored company commanded by Captain Takigawa Takiira with the 9 M25 Vickers Crossley armored cars bought by the navy (were the 9 M25 already in Shangaï or did they arrive during the battle ?) of the NLF Shanghai guard detachment (750 men before the incident of January 28 1932). This detachment was part of the Japanese forces which supported, between January 28 and May 5, 1932, a difficult fight with the 19th Chinese Route Army during the "Shanghai incident". Following these battles, the Shanghai Guard Detachment was reinforced and renamed Shanghai Special naval landing Corps. Commanded by Major General of the Navy Okawa and subordinate to Lieutenant General Tanigawa, commander of the 3rd fleet and supreme commander in Shanghai, the corps included before the battle of 1937 2,500 men (including the detachment of Hankou of 300 men).
The corps included a staff brigade and six naval infantry brigades with the 4th beeing artillery (4 howitzers 150 mm, 4 howitzers 120 mm, 12 mountain cannons 75 mm, 4 infantry guns 70 mm, 4 anti-aircraft guns 20 mm, 8 heavy mortars 150 mm).
The armored company was reinforced after the 1932 incident and consisted of 4 medium tanks type 89 (1 type A early, 2 type A late, type B), 3 Sumida naval P armored cars, 3 type 93 naval armored cars, 5 Carden loyd VIb light tanks, 9 M25 Vickers Crossley armored cars. This new armored detachment was commanded by Captain Yoshino Keizo. Regarding the color, the vehicles were either plain gray for the Sumidas or type 93 naval armored cars or khaki for the M25. The uniform which until then had been that of the navy (dark blue in winter, white in summer) also evolved to adopt a less conspicuous outfit, green close to that of the army.
In august 1945, there were still three type 93 naval armored cars in service as well as three sumida P and one M25 Crossley".
best regards
hubert
"These vehicles arrived in Shangaï in july 1932 too late to take part to the first battle of Shangaï but several photos show them during the Battle of Shanghai in 1937. Note that the #1 was damaged in the battle.
In Japan as in other countries, the populations could finance the construction of vehicles for the army or the navy, which was the case for sumida P. These were two associations designated Hokoku for the navy and Aikoku for the army which dealt with this task. This is what we see as an inscription on the sides of the body, this is also why this vehicle is sometimes incorrectly designated Hokoku type. Vehicle # 1 was funded by the city of Nagaoka.
In 1932, there was an armored company commanded by Captain Takigawa Takiira with the 9 M25 Vickers Crossley armored cars bought by the navy (were the 9 M25 already in Shangaï or did they arrive during the battle ?) of the NLF Shanghai guard detachment (750 men before the incident of January 28 1932). This detachment was part of the Japanese forces which supported, between January 28 and May 5, 1932, a difficult fight with the 19th Chinese Route Army during the "Shanghai incident". Following these battles, the Shanghai Guard Detachment was reinforced and renamed Shanghai Special naval landing Corps. Commanded by Major General of the Navy Okawa and subordinate to Lieutenant General Tanigawa, commander of the 3rd fleet and supreme commander in Shanghai, the corps included before the battle of 1937 2,500 men (including the detachment of Hankou of 300 men).
The corps included a staff brigade and six naval infantry brigades with the 4th beeing artillery (4 howitzers 150 mm, 4 howitzers 120 mm, 12 mountain cannons 75 mm, 4 infantry guns 70 mm, 4 anti-aircraft guns 20 mm, 8 heavy mortars 150 mm).
The armored company was reinforced after the 1932 incident and consisted of 4 medium tanks type 89 (1 type A early, 2 type A late, type B), 3 Sumida naval P armored cars, 3 type 93 naval armored cars, 5 Carden loyd VIb light tanks, 9 M25 Vickers Crossley armored cars. This new armored detachment was commanded by Captain Yoshino Keizo. Regarding the color, the vehicles were either plain gray for the Sumidas or type 93 naval armored cars or khaki for the M25. The uniform which until then had been that of the navy (dark blue in winter, white in summer) also evolved to adopt a less conspicuous outfit, green close to that of the army.
In august 1945, there were still three type 93 naval armored cars in service as well as three sumida P and one M25 Crossley".
best regards
hubert
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Akira Takizawa
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Re: japanese armored cars during the two battles of Shangaï
> In 1932, there was an armored company commanded by Captain Takigawa Takiira
No, the commander was Lt. Namihei Sasagawa.
> with the 9 M25 Vickers Crossley armored cars bought by the navy (were the 9 M25 already in Shangaï or did they arrive during the battle ?)
They were already in Shanghai.
> The armored company was reinforced after the 1932 incident and consisted of 4 medium tanks type 89 (1 type A early, 2 type A late, type B),
There was no type B (Otsu).
> Regarding the color, the vehicles were either plain gray for the Sumidas or type 93 naval armored cars or khaki for the M25.
They were all painted in khaki.
Taki
No, the commander was Lt. Namihei Sasagawa.
> with the 9 M25 Vickers Crossley armored cars bought by the navy (were the 9 M25 already in Shangaï or did they arrive during the battle ?)
They were already in Shanghai.
> The armored company was reinforced after the 1932 incident and consisted of 4 medium tanks type 89 (1 type A early, 2 type A late, type B),
There was no type B (Otsu).
> Regarding the color, the vehicles were either plain gray for the Sumidas or type 93 naval armored cars or khaki for the M25.
They were all painted in khaki.
Taki
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hubertlopez
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- Location: france
Re: japanese armored cars during the two battles of Shangaï
Thank you Mr Takizawa for theses corrections, best regards
hubert
hubert