Japanese Airborne Radars

Discussions on all aspects of the Japanese Empire, from the capture of Taiwan until the end of the Second World War.
Eugen Pinak
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Re: Japanese Airborne Radars

Post by Eugen Pinak » 22 Feb 2023 13:17

ShindenKai wrote:
21 Feb 2023 09:55
The RDF "hoops/loops" rotate inside the fairing. It's shaped more like a small wing, it would be made from a material that does not block radio waves.
If it was possible, the cover would be cylindrical, not elongated, in shape. No need to make large cover for small antenna.

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Re: Japanese Airborne Radars

Post by Eugen Pinak » 22 Feb 2023 13:52

fontessa wrote:
21 Feb 2023 23:52
I got a side view of E7K. According to it, the "Dome" seems to be "storage boxe" that can be installed on both sides.
AFAIK this Storage Box was located inside the hull on both sides of the circular device on the center line (shown on your drawing below the box inside the fuselage).
This Antenna Cover appeared later and was installed instead of one of those boxes.
fontessa wrote:
21 Feb 2023 23:52
Even in the photos of E7K, it seems to be off the center line. But I'm not sure this is correct.
That's correct.
What's incorrect is the photo with the dome offset to the starboard side. I think it's "flipped". On this place to the starboard side of the fuselage was the place to store machine-gun. No place for antenna.
fontessa wrote:
21 Feb 2023 23:52
However, if this were an RDF-related device, I would think that it would be mentioned in the description of the photo, but that is not the case at all.
I was puzzled too. "Mechanism..." on E7K has many drawings, but the only place this device was mentioned was a photo.

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fontessa
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Re: Japanese Airborne Radars

Post by fontessa » 23 Feb 2023 21:51

Type1 Mark3 RDF (Crucy Return Finder)
Type1 Mark3 RDF was introduced as Crucy Return Finder in 1935. After that, many IJFAF airplanes were equipped with it. However, it was seldom used for fear that the induced radio waves from aircraft carriers would reveal their position.

クルーシー帰投装置.jpg

クルーシー帰投装置 零戦.jpg

クルーシー帰投装置 99艦攻.jpg

クルーシー帰投装置 1式陸攻.jpg


クルーシー帰投装置 零式水偵.jpg


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ShindenKai
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Re: Japanese Airborne Radars

Post by ShindenKai » 23 Feb 2023 22:11

Eugen Pinak wrote:
22 Feb 2023 13:17
ShindenKai wrote:
21 Feb 2023 09:55
The RDF "hoops/loops" rotate inside the fairing. It's shaped more like a small wing, it would be made from a material that does not block radio waves.
If it was possible, the cover would be cylindrical, not elongated, in shape. No need to make large cover for small antenna.
The most likely reason for the style of fairing on the E7K is its already an aircraft with extremely high drag, therefore a simpler, easier to manufacture and install housing would be a better option. The Ki-67 & Ki-46 have much less drag/cleaner aerodynamics, it makes sense to have better shaped fairings.

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ShindenKai
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Re: Japanese Airborne Radars

Post by ShindenKai » 23 Feb 2023 22:42

fontessa wrote:
21 Feb 2023 23:52
I got a side view of E7K. According to it, the "Dome" seems to be "storage boxe" that can be installed on both sides. Even in the photos of E7K, it seems to be off the center line. But I'm not sure this is correct. However, if this were an RDF-related device, I would think that it would be mentioned in the description of the photo, but that is not the case at all.
fontessa
Thank you for the drawing info, Fontessa. Is that from a Maru Mechanic for the E7K? -I don't have any books on it, yet.

I've marked the drawing with some ? for items I have questions about.
The red dotted lines are for the bungee cording used for anti-vibration/shock mounting. The solid red line is for lines that appear to be exiting the fuselage, what are they for? Thank you again for your help.
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fontessa
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Re: Japanese Airborne Radars

Post by fontessa » 24 Feb 2023 03:21

ShindenKai wrote:
23 Feb 2023 22:11
Eugen Pinak wrote:
22 Feb 2023 13:17
ShindenKai wrote:
21 Feb 2023 09:55
The RDF "hoops/loops" rotate inside the fairing. It's shaped more like a small wing, it would be made from a material that does not block radio waves.
If it was possible, the cover would be cylindrical, not elongated, in shape. No need to make large cover for small antenna.
The most likely reason for the style of fairing on the E7K is its already an aircraft with extremely high drag, therefore a simpler, easier to manufacture and install housing would be a better option. The Ki-67 & Ki-46 have much less drag/cleaner aerodynamics, it makes sense to have better shaped fairings.
テレフンケン方位探知機.jpg

テレフンケン方位探知機 2.jpg

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fontessa
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Re: Japanese Airborne Radars

Post by fontessa » 24 Feb 2023 12:46

ShindenKai wrote:
23 Feb 2023 22:42
fontessa wrote:
21 Feb 2023 23:52
I got a side view of E7K. According to it, the "Dome" seems to be "storage boxe" that can be installed on both sides. Even in the photos of E7K, it seems to be off the center line. But I'm not sure this is correct. However, if this were an RDF-related device, I would think that it would be mentioned in the description of the photo, but that is not the case at all.
fontessa
Thank you for the drawing info, Fontessa. Is that from a Maru Mechanic for the E7K? -I don't have any books on it, yet.

I've marked the drawing with some ? for items I have questions about.
The red dotted lines are for the bungee cording used for anti-vibration/shock mounting. The solid red line is for lines that appear to be exiting the fuselage, what are they for? Thank you again for your help.
94式水偵 質問.png

The below drawings were quoted from "Japanese Seaplanes" written by Nohara Shigeru.
96式空3号無線電信機.jpg

94式水上偵察機 空中線.jpg

I think antennas were pulled into the fuselage when the wings were folded.
94式水偵 主翼折り畳み.jpg

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ShindenKai
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Re: Japanese Airborne Radars

Post by ShindenKai » 21 Mar 2023 07:18

Thanks for the added info Fontessa, that's a great model as well. How quickly could the wings be folded/unfolded?

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fontessa
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Re: Japanese Airborne Radars

Post by fontessa » 21 Mar 2023 10:56

ShindenKai wrote:
21 Mar 2023 07:18
Thanks for the added info Fontessa, that's a great model as well. How quickly could the wings be folded/unfolded?
How to fold the main wing of a biplane...it looks like a difficult problem. The case with E7K feels a bit unsophisticated. The upper picture is an Impressive diorama of Pete with the wings folded down in the Yamato hangar using a Tamiya Pete 1/50 scale model. Pete's chief design engineer, Sano Eitaro 佐野栄太郎, was a "mustang" from a factory worker. He assisted Horikoshi Jiro 堀越二郎, later Zero's chief design engineer, in designing the Type 7 Prototype Carrier-based Fighter, Horikoshi's first work after joining Mitsubishi. I don't know the details, but Sano and Horikoshi didn't get along and didn't work together after the Type7 prototype. Pete was definitely a masterpiece that fully demonstrated Sano's ability. Naturally, the folding of the main wing was also "beautiful". It would have taken several minutes for the biplane wings to extend. Because it took 15 minutes to extend the main wings of the Seiran mounted on I-400, place it on the catapult, and complete preparations for launch. . .

Tail number 241 shows Yamato.
零観 2.jpg

零観 1.jpg

晴嵐 運用.jpg

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ShindenKai
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Re: Japanese Airborne Radars

Post by ShindenKai » 29 Mar 2023 00:14

fontessa wrote:
21 Mar 2023 10:56
How to fold the main wing of a biplane...it looks like a difficult problem. The case with E7K feels a bit unsophisticated. The upper picture is an Impressive diorama of Pete with the wings folded down in the Yamato hangar using a Tamiya Pete 1/50 scale model. Pete's chief design engineer, Sano Eitaro 佐野栄太郎, was a "mustang" from a factory worker. He assisted Horikoshi Jiro 堀越二郎, later Zero's chief design engineer, in designing the Type 7 Prototype Carrier-based Fighter, Horikoshi's first work after joining Mitsubishi. I don't know the details, but Sano and Horikoshi didn't get along and didn't work together after the Type7 prototype. Pete was definitely a masterpiece that fully demonstrated Sano's ability. Naturally, the folding of the main wing was also "beautiful". It would have taken several minutes for the biplane wings to extend. Because it took 15 minutes to extend the main wings of the Seiran mounted on I-400, place it on the catapult, and complete preparations for launch. . .
fontessa
I've always liked the looks of the F1M Pete, it's a sporty looking biplane seaplane. Unfortunately, there is almost no information about Sano Eitaro in English. What other projects did he work on?

That Seiran dolly does appear to have some similarity to the Suisei-Kai dolly.

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Re: Japanese Airborne Radars

Post by fontessa » 30 Mar 2023 00:15

ShindenKai wrote:
29 Mar 2023 00:14
fontessa wrote:
21 Mar 2023 10:56
How to fold the main wing of a biplane...it looks like a difficult problem. The case with E7K feels a bit unsophisticated. The upper picture is an Impressive diorama of Pete with the wings folded down in the Yamato hangar using a Tamiya Pete 1/50 scale model. Pete's chief design engineer, Sano Eitaro 佐野栄太郎, was a "mustang" from a factory worker. He assisted Horikoshi Jiro 堀越二郎, later Zero's chief design engineer, in designing the Type 7 Prototype Carrier-based Fighter, Horikoshi's first work after joining Mitsubishi. I don't know the details, but Sano and Horikoshi didn't get along and didn't work together after the Type7 prototype. Pete was definitely a masterpiece that fully demonstrated Sano's ability. Naturally, the folding of the main wing was also "beautiful". It would have taken several minutes for the biplane wings to extend. Because it took 15 minutes to extend the main wings of the Seiran mounted on I-400, place it on the catapult, and complete preparations for launch. . .
fontessa
I've always liked the looks of the F1M Pete, it's a sporty looking biplane seaplane. Unfortunately, there is almost no information about Sano Eitaro in English. What other projects did he work on?
(1) Chief Designer / 8th Year Tow-seater Fighter Prototype
(2) Assistant for Chief Designer Horikoshi Jiro / 7th Carrier-based Fighter Prototype
(3) Chief Designer / 10th Year Observing Seaplane Prototype (F1M, Pete)
(4) Redesigned to A6M5C (Dispatched to Naval Aeronautical Research Institute)
(5) Chief Designer / 17th Year Interceptor (J4M Senden. Luke)

For the IJNAF to adopt aircraft, it was a "Designated Competitive Bidding System" in which multiple companies were designated, made to produce prototypes, and the one with the best performance was adopted. For the 10th Year Observing Seaplane Prototype, Mitsubishi and Aichi were designated. Although Mitsubishi had no experience with seaplanes, Mitsubishi's winning showed Sano's competence and the organization's strength.
And For 7th, 9th and 12th Fighters, Mitsubishi and Nakajima were designated. For 7th Fighter, both were not adopted. The winners of 9th Fighter, and 12th Fighter were Mitsubishi - 9th became Claude and 12th became Zero. In the case of 12th, Nakajima dishonorably declined to make a prototype because IJNAF's demands exceeded their ability.
As Shinden became more promising, the development of Senden was discontinued.

佐野栄太郎 1.jpg

佐野栄太郎 3.jpg


The horizontal stabilizer was placed high to avoid the impact of the propeller wake on it.
佐野栄太郎 2.jpg

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fontessa
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Re: Japanese Airborne Radars

Post by fontessa » 02 Apr 2023 23:13

fontessa wrote:
30 Mar 2023 00:15
ShindenKai wrote:
29 Mar 2023 00:14
fontessa wrote:
21 Mar 2023 10:56
How to fold the main wing of a biplane...it looks like a difficult problem. The case with E7K feels a bit unsophisticated. The upper picture is an Impressive diorama of Pete with the wings folded down in the Yamato hangar using a Tamiya Pete 1/50 scale model. Pete's chief design engineer, Sano Eitaro 佐野栄太郎, was a "mustang" from a factory worker. He assisted Horikoshi Jiro 堀越二郎, later Zero's chief design engineer, in designing the Type 7 Prototype Carrier-based Fighter, Horikoshi's first work after joining Mitsubishi. I don't know the details, but Sano and Horikoshi didn't get along and didn't work together after the Type7 prototype. Pete was definitely a masterpiece that fully demonstrated Sano's ability. Naturally, the folding of the main wing was also "beautiful". It would have taken several minutes for the biplane wings to extend. Because it took 15 minutes to extend the main wings of the Seiran mounted on I-400, place it on the catapult, and complete preparations for launch. . .
fontessa
I've always liked the looks of the F1M Pete, it's a sporty looking biplane seaplane. Unfortunately, there is almost no information about Sano Eitaro in English. What other projects did he work on?
(1) Chief Designer / 8th Year Tow-seater Fighter Prototype
(2) Assistant for Chief Designer Horikoshi Jiro / 7th Carrier-based Fighter Prototype
(3) Chief Designer / 10th Year Observing Seaplane Prototype (F1M, Pete)
(4) Redesigned to A6M5C (Dispatched to Naval Aeronautical Research Institute)
(5) Chief Designer / 17th Year Interceptor (J4M Senden. Luke)

For the IJNAF to adopt aircraft, it was a "Designated Competitive Bidding System" in which multiple companies were designated, made to produce prototypes, and the one with the best performance was adopted. For the 10th Year Observing Seaplane Prototype, Mitsubishi and Aichi were designated. Although Mitsubishi had no experience with seaplanes, Mitsubishi's winning showed Sano's competence and the organization's strength.
And For 7th, 9th and 12th Fighters, Mitsubishi and Nakajima were designated. For 7th Fighter, both were not adopted. The winners of 9th Fighter, and 12th Fighter were Mitsubishi - 9th became Claude and 12th became Zero. In the case of 12th, Nakajima dishonorably declined to make a prototype because IJNAF's demands exceeded their ability.
As Shinden became more promising, the development of Senden was discontinued.


佐野栄太郎 1.jpg



佐野栄太郎 3.jpg



The horizontal stabilizer was placed high to avoid the impact of the propeller wake on it.
佐野栄太郎 2.jpg


fontessa
I found his photo;
佐野栄太郎 4.jpg

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ShindenKai
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Re: Japanese Airborne Radars

Post by ShindenKai » 09 May 2023 19:57

fontessa wrote:
30 Mar 2023 00:15
How to fold the main wing of a biplane...it looks like a difficult problem. The case with E7K feels a bit unsophisticated. The upper picture is an Impressive diorama of Pete with the wings folded down in the Yamato hangar using a Tamiya Pete 1/50 scale model. Pete's chief design engineer, Sano Eitaro 佐野栄太郎, was a "mustang" from a factory worker. He assisted Horikoshi Jiro 堀越二郎, later Zero's chief design engineer, in designing the Type 7 Prototype Carrier-based Fighter, Horikoshi's first work after joining Mitsubishi. I don't know the details, but Sano and Horikoshi didn't get along and didn't work together after the Type7 prototype. Pete was definitely a masterpiece that fully demonstrated Sano's ability. Naturally, the folding of the main wing was also "beautiful". It would have taken several minutes for the biplane wings to extend. Because it took 15 minutes to extend the main wings of the Seiran mounted on I-400, place it on the catapult, and complete preparations for launch. . .

(1) Chief Designer / 8th Year Tow-seater Fighter Prototype
(2) Assistant for Chief Designer Horikoshi Jiro / 7th Carrier-based Fighter Prototype
(3) Chief Designer / 10th Year Observing Seaplane Prototype (F1M, Pete)
(4) Redesigned to A6M5C (Dispatched to Naval Aeronautical Research Institute)
(5) Chief Designer / 17th Year Interceptor (J4M Senden. Luke)

For the IJNAF to adopt aircraft, it was a "Designated Competitive Bidding System" in which multiple companies were designated, made to produce prototypes, and the one with the best performance was adopted. For the 10th Year Observing Seaplane Prototype, Mitsubishi and Aichi were designated. Although Mitsubishi had no experience with seaplanes, Mitsubishi's winning showed Sano's competence and the organization's strength.
And For 7th, 9th and 12th Fighters, Mitsubishi and Nakajima were designated. For 7th Fighter, both were not adopted. The winners of 9th Fighter, and 12th Fighter were Mitsubishi - 9th became Claude and 12th became Zero. In the case of 12th, Nakajima dishonorably declined to make a prototype because IJNAF's demands exceeded their ability.
As Shinden became more promising, the development of Senden was discontinued.
fontessa
Thank you for the further information Fontessa. What aircraft is that with the pusher engine and twin-boom tail? -I was under the impression that the Senden had never been built, except perhaps a wooden mock-up?

Also, where can I find those images of the M6A1 Seiran?

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fontessa
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Re: Japanese Airborne Radars

Post by fontessa » 09 May 2023 23:22

ShindenKai wrote:
09 May 2023 19:57
Thank you for the further information Fontessa. What aircraft is that with the pusher engine and twin-boom tail? -I was under the impression that the Senden had never been built, except perhaps a wooden mock-up?
That seems to be Senden's Anticipation Picture.
ShindenKai wrote:
09 May 2023 19:57
Also, where can I find those images of the M6A1 Seiran?
There aren't many photos of Seiran left.

晴嵐 1.jpg

晴嵐 5.jpg

晴嵐 2.jpg

晴嵐 3.jpg

晴嵐 4.jpg

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Takao
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Re: Japanese Airborne Radars

Post by Takao » 11 May 2023 15:33

fontessa wrote:
30 Mar 2023 00:15
The horizontal stabilizer was placed high to avoid the impact of the propeller wake on it.
佐野栄太郎 2.jpg


fontessa
Just curious, but what does a French aircraft have to do with this?
The aircraft pictured is a Société nationale des constructions aéronautiques du Sud-Ouest (SNCASO) SO.8000 Narval.

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