If it was possible, the cover would be cylindrical, not elongated, in shape. No need to make large cover for small antenna.ShindenKai wrote: ↑21 Feb 2023, 10:55The RDF "hoops/loops" rotate inside the fairing. It's shaped more like a small wing, it would be made from a material that does not block radio waves.
Japanese Airborne Radars
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Re: Japanese Airborne Radars
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Re: Japanese Airborne Radars
AFAIK this Storage Box was located inside the hull on both sides of the circular device on the center line (shown on your drawing below the box inside the fuselage).
This Antenna Cover appeared later and was installed instead of one of those boxes.
That's correct.
What's incorrect is the photo with the dome offset to the starboard side. I think it's "flipped". On this place to the starboard side of the fuselage was the place to store machine-gun. No place for antenna.
I was puzzled too. "Mechanism..." on E7K has many drawings, but the only place this device was mentioned was a photo.
Re: Japanese Airborne Radars
Type1 Mark3 RDF (Crucy Return Finder)
Type1 Mark3 RDF was introduced as Crucy Return Finder in 1935. After that, many IJFAF airplanes were equipped with it. However, it was seldom used for fear that the induced radio waves from aircraft carriers would reveal their position.
fontessa
Type1 Mark3 RDF was introduced as Crucy Return Finder in 1935. After that, many IJFAF airplanes were equipped with it. However, it was seldom used for fear that the induced radio waves from aircraft carriers would reveal their position.
fontessa
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Re: Japanese Airborne Radars
The most likely reason for the style of fairing on the E7K is its already an aircraft with extremely high drag, therefore a simpler, easier to manufacture and install housing would be a better option. The Ki-67 & Ki-46 have much less drag/cleaner aerodynamics, it makes sense to have better shaped fairings.Eugen Pinak wrote: ↑22 Feb 2023, 14:17If it was possible, the cover would be cylindrical, not elongated, in shape. No need to make large cover for small antenna.ShindenKai wrote: ↑21 Feb 2023, 10:55The RDF "hoops/loops" rotate inside the fairing. It's shaped more like a small wing, it would be made from a material that does not block radio waves.
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Re: Japanese Airborne Radars
Thank you for the drawing info, Fontessa. Is that from a Maru Mechanic for the E7K? -I don't have any books on it, yet.fontessa wrote: ↑22 Feb 2023, 00:52I got a side view of E7K. According to it, the "Dome" seems to be "storage boxe" that can be installed on both sides. Even in the photos of E7K, it seems to be off the center line. But I'm not sure this is correct. However, if this were an RDF-related device, I would think that it would be mentioned in the description of the photo, but that is not the case at all.
fontessa
I've marked the drawing with some ? for items I have questions about.
The red dotted lines are for the bungee cording used for anti-vibration/shock mounting. The solid red line is for lines that appear to be exiting the fuselage, what are they for? Thank you again for your help.
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Re: Japanese Airborne Radars
ShindenKai wrote: ↑23 Feb 2023, 23:11The most likely reason for the style of fairing on the E7K is its already an aircraft with extremely high drag, therefore a simpler, easier to manufacture and install housing would be a better option. The Ki-67 & Ki-46 have much less drag/cleaner aerodynamics, it makes sense to have better shaped fairings.Eugen Pinak wrote: ↑22 Feb 2023, 14:17If it was possible, the cover would be cylindrical, not elongated, in shape. No need to make large cover for small antenna.ShindenKai wrote: ↑21 Feb 2023, 10:55The RDF "hoops/loops" rotate inside the fairing. It's shaped more like a small wing, it would be made from a material that does not block radio waves.
fontessa
Re: Japanese Airborne Radars
The below drawings were quoted from "Japanese Seaplanes" written by Nohara Shigeru.ShindenKai wrote: ↑23 Feb 2023, 23:42Thank you for the drawing info, Fontessa. Is that from a Maru Mechanic for the E7K? -I don't have any books on it, yet.fontessa wrote: ↑22 Feb 2023, 00:52I got a side view of E7K. According to it, the "Dome" seems to be "storage boxe" that can be installed on both sides. Even in the photos of E7K, it seems to be off the center line. But I'm not sure this is correct. However, if this were an RDF-related device, I would think that it would be mentioned in the description of the photo, but that is not the case at all.
fontessa
I've marked the drawing with some ? for items I have questions about.
The red dotted lines are for the bungee cording used for anti-vibration/shock mounting. The solid red line is for lines that appear to be exiting the fuselage, what are they for? Thank you again for your help.
I think antennas were pulled into the fuselage when the wings were folded.
fontessa
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Re: Japanese Airborne Radars
Thanks for the added info Fontessa, that's a great model as well. How quickly could the wings be folded/unfolded?
Re: Japanese Airborne Radars
How to fold the main wing of a biplane...it looks like a difficult problem. The case with E7K feels a bit unsophisticated. The upper picture is an Impressive diorama of Pete with the wings folded down in the Yamato hangar using a Tamiya Pete 1/50 scale model. Pete's chief design engineer, Sano Eitaro 佐野栄太郎, was a "mustang" from a factory worker. He assisted Horikoshi Jiro 堀越二郎, later Zero's chief design engineer, in designing the Type 7 Prototype Carrier-based Fighter, Horikoshi's first work after joining Mitsubishi. I don't know the details, but Sano and Horikoshi didn't get along and didn't work together after the Type7 prototype. Pete was definitely a masterpiece that fully demonstrated Sano's ability. Naturally, the folding of the main wing was also "beautiful". It would have taken several minutes for the biplane wings to extend. Because it took 15 minutes to extend the main wings of the Seiran mounted on I-400, place it on the catapult, and complete preparations for launch. . .ShindenKai wrote: ↑21 Mar 2023, 08:18Thanks for the added info Fontessa, that's a great model as well. How quickly could the wings be folded/unfolded?
Tail number 241 shows Yamato.
fontessa
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Re: Japanese Airborne Radars
I've always liked the looks of the F1M Pete, it's a sporty looking biplane seaplane. Unfortunately, there is almost no information about Sano Eitaro in English. What other projects did he work on?fontessa wrote: ↑21 Mar 2023, 11:56How to fold the main wing of a biplane...it looks like a difficult problem. The case with E7K feels a bit unsophisticated. The upper picture is an Impressive diorama of Pete with the wings folded down in the Yamato hangar using a Tamiya Pete 1/50 scale model. Pete's chief design engineer, Sano Eitaro 佐野栄太郎, was a "mustang" from a factory worker. He assisted Horikoshi Jiro 堀越二郎, later Zero's chief design engineer, in designing the Type 7 Prototype Carrier-based Fighter, Horikoshi's first work after joining Mitsubishi. I don't know the details, but Sano and Horikoshi didn't get along and didn't work together after the Type7 prototype. Pete was definitely a masterpiece that fully demonstrated Sano's ability. Naturally, the folding of the main wing was also "beautiful". It would have taken several minutes for the biplane wings to extend. Because it took 15 minutes to extend the main wings of the Seiran mounted on I-400, place it on the catapult, and complete preparations for launch. . .
fontessa
That Seiran dolly does appear to have some similarity to the Suisei-Kai dolly.
Re: Japanese Airborne Radars
(1) Chief Designer / 8th Year Tow-seater Fighter PrototypeShindenKai wrote: ↑29 Mar 2023, 01:14I've always liked the looks of the F1M Pete, it's a sporty looking biplane seaplane. Unfortunately, there is almost no information about Sano Eitaro in English. What other projects did he work on?fontessa wrote: ↑21 Mar 2023, 11:56How to fold the main wing of a biplane...it looks like a difficult problem. The case with E7K feels a bit unsophisticated. The upper picture is an Impressive diorama of Pete with the wings folded down in the Yamato hangar using a Tamiya Pete 1/50 scale model. Pete's chief design engineer, Sano Eitaro 佐野栄太郎, was a "mustang" from a factory worker. He assisted Horikoshi Jiro 堀越二郎, later Zero's chief design engineer, in designing the Type 7 Prototype Carrier-based Fighter, Horikoshi's first work after joining Mitsubishi. I don't know the details, but Sano and Horikoshi didn't get along and didn't work together after the Type7 prototype. Pete was definitely a masterpiece that fully demonstrated Sano's ability. Naturally, the folding of the main wing was also "beautiful". It would have taken several minutes for the biplane wings to extend. Because it took 15 minutes to extend the main wings of the Seiran mounted on I-400, place it on the catapult, and complete preparations for launch. . .
fontessa
(2) Assistant for Chief Designer Horikoshi Jiro / 7th Carrier-based Fighter Prototype
(3) Chief Designer / 10th Year Observing Seaplane Prototype (F1M, Pete)
(4) Redesigned to A6M5C (Dispatched to Naval Aeronautical Research Institute)
(5) Chief Designer / 17th Year Interceptor (J4M Senden. Luke)
For the IJNAF to adopt aircraft, it was a "Designated Competitive Bidding System" in which multiple companies were designated, made to produce prototypes, and the one with the best performance was adopted. For the 10th Year Observing Seaplane Prototype, Mitsubishi and Aichi were designated. Although Mitsubishi had no experience with seaplanes, Mitsubishi's winning showed Sano's competence and the organization's strength.
And For 7th, 9th and 12th Fighters, Mitsubishi and Nakajima were designated. For 7th Fighter, both were not adopted. The winners of 9th Fighter, and 12th Fighter were Mitsubishi - 9th became Claude and 12th became Zero. In the case of 12th, Nakajima dishonorably declined to make a prototype because IJNAF's demands exceeded their ability.
As Shinden became more promising, the development of Senden was discontinued.
The horizontal stabilizer was placed high to avoid the impact of the propeller wake on it.
fontessa
Re: Japanese Airborne Radars
I found his photo;fontessa wrote: ↑30 Mar 2023, 01:15(1) Chief Designer / 8th Year Tow-seater Fighter PrototypeShindenKai wrote: ↑29 Mar 2023, 01:14I've always liked the looks of the F1M Pete, it's a sporty looking biplane seaplane. Unfortunately, there is almost no information about Sano Eitaro in English. What other projects did he work on?fontessa wrote: ↑21 Mar 2023, 11:56How to fold the main wing of a biplane...it looks like a difficult problem. The case with E7K feels a bit unsophisticated. The upper picture is an Impressive diorama of Pete with the wings folded down in the Yamato hangar using a Tamiya Pete 1/50 scale model. Pete's chief design engineer, Sano Eitaro 佐野栄太郎, was a "mustang" from a factory worker. He assisted Horikoshi Jiro 堀越二郎, later Zero's chief design engineer, in designing the Type 7 Prototype Carrier-based Fighter, Horikoshi's first work after joining Mitsubishi. I don't know the details, but Sano and Horikoshi didn't get along and didn't work together after the Type7 prototype. Pete was definitely a masterpiece that fully demonstrated Sano's ability. Naturally, the folding of the main wing was also "beautiful". It would have taken several minutes for the biplane wings to extend. Because it took 15 minutes to extend the main wings of the Seiran mounted on I-400, place it on the catapult, and complete preparations for launch. . .
fontessa
(2) Assistant for Chief Designer Horikoshi Jiro / 7th Carrier-based Fighter Prototype
(3) Chief Designer / 10th Year Observing Seaplane Prototype (F1M, Pete)
(4) Redesigned to A6M5C (Dispatched to Naval Aeronautical Research Institute)
(5) Chief Designer / 17th Year Interceptor (J4M Senden. Luke)
For the IJNAF to adopt aircraft, it was a "Designated Competitive Bidding System" in which multiple companies were designated, made to produce prototypes, and the one with the best performance was adopted. For the 10th Year Observing Seaplane Prototype, Mitsubishi and Aichi were designated. Although Mitsubishi had no experience with seaplanes, Mitsubishi's winning showed Sano's competence and the organization's strength.
And For 7th, 9th and 12th Fighters, Mitsubishi and Nakajima were designated. For 7th Fighter, both were not adopted. The winners of 9th Fighter, and 12th Fighter were Mitsubishi - 9th became Claude and 12th became Zero. In the case of 12th, Nakajima dishonorably declined to make a prototype because IJNAF's demands exceeded their ability.
As Shinden became more promising, the development of Senden was discontinued.
佐野栄太郎 1.jpg
佐野栄太郎 3.jpg
The horizontal stabilizer was placed high to avoid the impact of the propeller wake on it.
佐野栄太郎 2.jpg
fontessa
fontessa
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Re: Japanese Airborne Radars
Thank you for the further information Fontessa. What aircraft is that with the pusher engine and twin-boom tail? -I was under the impression that the Senden had never been built, except perhaps a wooden mock-up?fontessa wrote: ↑30 Mar 2023, 01:15How to fold the main wing of a biplane...it looks like a difficult problem. The case with E7K feels a bit unsophisticated. The upper picture is an Impressive diorama of Pete with the wings folded down in the Yamato hangar using a Tamiya Pete 1/50 scale model. Pete's chief design engineer, Sano Eitaro 佐野栄太郎, was a "mustang" from a factory worker. He assisted Horikoshi Jiro 堀越二郎, later Zero's chief design engineer, in designing the Type 7 Prototype Carrier-based Fighter, Horikoshi's first work after joining Mitsubishi. I don't know the details, but Sano and Horikoshi didn't get along and didn't work together after the Type7 prototype. Pete was definitely a masterpiece that fully demonstrated Sano's ability. Naturally, the folding of the main wing was also "beautiful". It would have taken several minutes for the biplane wings to extend. Because it took 15 minutes to extend the main wings of the Seiran mounted on I-400, place it on the catapult, and complete preparations for launch. . .
(1) Chief Designer / 8th Year Tow-seater Fighter Prototype
(2) Assistant for Chief Designer Horikoshi Jiro / 7th Carrier-based Fighter Prototype
(3) Chief Designer / 10th Year Observing Seaplane Prototype (F1M, Pete)
(4) Redesigned to A6M5C (Dispatched to Naval Aeronautical Research Institute)
(5) Chief Designer / 17th Year Interceptor (J4M Senden. Luke)
For the IJNAF to adopt aircraft, it was a "Designated Competitive Bidding System" in which multiple companies were designated, made to produce prototypes, and the one with the best performance was adopted. For the 10th Year Observing Seaplane Prototype, Mitsubishi and Aichi were designated. Although Mitsubishi had no experience with seaplanes, Mitsubishi's winning showed Sano's competence and the organization's strength.
And For 7th, 9th and 12th Fighters, Mitsubishi and Nakajima were designated. For 7th Fighter, both were not adopted. The winners of 9th Fighter, and 12th Fighter were Mitsubishi - 9th became Claude and 12th became Zero. In the case of 12th, Nakajima dishonorably declined to make a prototype because IJNAF's demands exceeded their ability.
As Shinden became more promising, the development of Senden was discontinued.
fontessa
Also, where can I find those images of the M6A1 Seiran?
Re: Japanese Airborne Radars
That seems to be Senden's Anticipation Picture.ShindenKai wrote: ↑09 May 2023, 20:57Thank you for the further information Fontessa. What aircraft is that with the pusher engine and twin-boom tail? -I was under the impression that the Senden had never been built, except perhaps a wooden mock-up?
There aren't many photos of Seiran left.
fontessa
Re: Japanese Airborne Radars
Just curious, but what does a French aircraft have to do with this?
The aircraft pictured is a Société nationale des constructions aéronautiques du Sud-Ouest (SNCASO) SO.8000 Narval.