Wake Quest

Discussions on all aspects of the Japanese Empire, from the capture of Taiwan until the end of the Second World War.
Brady
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Wake Quest

Post by Brady » 07 Jan 2022 23:21

I am seeking information and some clarity on the following:

I'm having trouble with the air groups for Hiryu/Soryu as of December 21st. From what I can tell, each carrier lost 4 planes over Pearl. But I'm at a loss for damaged aircraft and actual totals available for action for Wake.

Also, any interesting tidbits about Japanese land units? My (contradictory) sources list the entire 2nd Maizuru for Wake or just two infantry companies. As many as 400 more sailors/SNLF came from drafts from the 5th and 6th Base Forces and the original 5th Maizuru Company (of 5th Base Force) from the first assault was retained, plus about 350 men from a company sized unit of the 7th Base Force(??).

What were there TOE's like ?

Land based air is pretty clear, just need to isolate operational aircraft on a specific date. Any help appreciated.

OpanaPointer
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Re: Wake Quest

Post by OpanaPointer » 08 Jan 2022 00:20

Have you explored the Japanese Monographs?
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Brady
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Re: Wake Quest

Post by Brady » 08 Jan 2022 00:30

OpanaPointer wrote:
08 Jan 2022 00:20
Have you explored the Japanese Monographs?
I have some western Sources, that I don't entirely trust.

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Re: Wake Quest

Post by OpanaPointer » 08 Jan 2022 01:06

Brady wrote:
08 Jan 2022 00:30
OpanaPointer wrote:
08 Jan 2022 00:20
Have you explored the Japanese Monographs?
I have some western Sources, that I don't entirely trust.
The Monographs were written by Japanese familiar with the topics. This was part of the peace settlement the MacArthur Shogunate demanded. The monographs give us one more view of the information, like the assumption that the "Nimitz Fleet" had been destroyed and the "MacArthur Army" would have to develop airfields on the southern Philippines before invading Luzon. (Page 2 of Monograph 24.)
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fontessa
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Re: Wake Quest

Post by fontessa » 08 Jan 2022 11:49

Brady wrote:
07 Jan 2022 23:21
I'm having trouble with the air groups for Hiryu/Soryu as of December 21st. From what I can tell, each carrier lost 4 planes over Pearl. But I'm at a loss for damaged aircraft and actual totals available for action for Wake.
No problem. (Losses were 2 each)

Attack on Pearl Harbor
Val: 18 (Hiryu), 18 (Soryu)
Kate: 0 (Hiryu), 0 (Soryu)
Loss at Pearl Harbor
Val: 2 (Hiryu), 2 (Soryu)
Kate: 0 (Hiryu), 0 (Soryu)
Remaining
Val: 16 (Hiryu), 16 (Hiryu)
Kate: 18 (Hiryu), 18 (Soryu)
*Spare
Val: 3 (Hiryu), 3 (Hiryu)
Kate: 3 (Hiryu), 3 (Hiryu)
Attack on Wake on December 21
Val: 29 (Hiryu + Soryu)
Kate: 33 (Hiryu + Soryu)
*Spare: Stored in disassembled states. Assembled when needed.

fontessa

Brady
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Re: Wake Quest

Post by Brady » 08 Jan 2022 16:18

fontessa wrote:
08 Jan 2022 11:49
Brady wrote:
07 Jan 2022 23:21
I'm having trouble with the air groups for Hiryu/Soryu as of December 21st. From what I can tell, each carrier lost 4 planes over Pearl. But I'm at a loss for damaged aircraft and actual totals available for action for Wake.
No problem. (Loss was 2 each)

Attack on Pearl Harbor
Val: 18 (Hiryu), 18 (Soryu)
Kate: 0 (Hiryu), 0 (Soryu)
Loss at Pearl Harbor
Val: 2 (Hiryu), 2 (Soryu)
Kate: 0 (Hiryu), 0 (Soryu)
Remaining
Val: 16 (Hiryu), 16 (Hiryu)
Kate: 18 (Hiryu), 18 (Soryu)
*Spare
Val: 3 (Hiryu), 3 (Hiryu)
Kate: 3 (Hiryu), 3 (Hiryu)
Attack on Wake on December 21
Val: 29 (Hiryu + Soryu)
Kate: 33 (Hiryu + Soryu)
*Spare: Stored in disassembled states. Assembled when needed.

fontessa


Great News, and Only one Zero was lost on operations?

9 December (local):
One A6M2 CAP fighter crashed and went overboard while landing on SORYU. Pilot lost.
(TROMS)

Before they got to wake, and the Zero Complement for both Carriers was? (Including any spares)

Thanks Again BTW

..............................

Any idea what the Load out's on the Wake Strikes were, there is mention of the Kates carrying two 250 kg bombs each on one strike in the TROM's but nothing else.


.....................................

Just now Found this:

19 December 1941:
At 1000, minelayer TSUGARU arrives and moors next to KINRYU MARU. At 1100, TSUGARU transfers 309 army soldiers, 1 mountain gun, 2 trucks, 2 machine guns, ammunition and munitions for 1 month. At 1415, disengages.
From the TROM's

What IJA Unit was this ?

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fontessa
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Re: Wake Quest

Post by fontessa » 08 Jan 2022 17:49

Brady wrote:
08 Jan 2022 16:18
Great News, and Only one Zero was lost on operations?

9 December (local):
One A6M2 CAP fighter crashed and went overboard while landing on SORYU. Pilot lost.
(TROMS)

Before they got to wake, and the Zero Complement for both Carriers was? (Including any spares)
I omitted Zeek because, it seemed that your interest was other than it.

Attack on Pearl Harbor
Zeek [1st Wave]: 6 (Hiryu), 8 (Soryu)
Zeek [2nd Wave]: 9 (Hiryu), 9 (Soryu)
Val: 18 (Hiryu), 18 (Soryu)
Kate: 0 (Hiryu), 0 (Soryu)
Loss at Pearl Harbor
Zeek [1st + 2nd]: 1 (Hiryu), 3 (Soryu)
Zeek [Accident / December 10]: 0 (Hiryu), 1 (Soryu)
Val: 2 (Hiryu), 2 (Soryu)
Kate: 0 (Hiryu), 0 (Soryu)
Remaining
Zeek: 17 (Hiryu), 14 (Soryu)
Val: 16 (Hiryu), 16 (Hiryu)
Kate: 18 (Hiryu), 18 (Soryu)
*Spare
Zeek: 3 (Hiryu), 3 (Hiryu)
Val: 3 (Hiryu), 3 (Hiryu)
Kate: 3 (Hiryu), 3 (Hiryu)
Attack on Wake on December 21
Zeek [1st Wave]: 18 (Hiryu + Soryu)
Zeek [2nd Wave]: 6 (Hiryu + Soryu)
Val: 29 (Hiryu + Soryu)
Kate: 33 (Hiryu + Soryu)
*Spare: Stored in disassembled states. Assembled when needed.

Brady wrote:
08 Jan 2022 16:18
Any idea what the Load out's on the Wake Strikes were, there is mention of the Kates carrying two 250 kg bombs each on one strike in the TROM's but nothing else.
Kate could carry two 250kg land bombs at the sane time. Hiryu and Soryu consumed total 36 - 250 kg land bombs in Pearl Harbor. Whether or not 33 kate can be equipped with 250 kg land bombs depended on how many 250 kg bombs had been loaded on Hiryu and Soryu, including 250 kg armor-piercing bombs. The 1st Air Fleet must have had a considerable number of 250kg armor-piercing bombs, for the engage with US aircraft carriers. I don’t know how many various bombs IJN aircraft carriers could carry.

fontessa

Brady
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Re: Wake Quest

Post by Brady » 08 Jan 2022 18:03

Concerning Bomb's, I am always looking for Operational details regarding the use of Bombs on specific targets, Like did the Val's use just one 250 KG bomb, or did they take a 60 kg on each wing, and or a 250 kg bomb, Did the kates in one of the Raids use 60 kg bomb's that kind of thing, what were there targets.


.........................................
Below is from Jingei's TROM, some question has been given as to whether or not she actually Sailed for Wake, does anyone have a source that can Verify this?

November 1941:
Truk. JINGEI is in Vice Admiral (later Admiral) Inoue Shigeyoshi's (former CO of HIEI) Fourth Fleet as flagship of Rear Admiral (later Vice Admiral) Onishi Shinzo's SubRon 7 consisting of SubDivs 26, 27 and 33. She is equipped with an E7K2 “Alf” floatplane.2 December 1941: Operation "Z":
The coded signal "Niitakayama nobore (Climb Mt. Niitaka) 1208" is received from the Combined Fleet. It signifies that hostilities will commence on 8 December (Japan time). Mt. Niitaka, located in Formosa (now Taiwan), is then the highest point in the Japanese Empire.8-10 December 1941: The Invasion of Wake Island:
Kwajalein. Departs with Rear Admiral (Vice Admiral, posthumously) Kajioka Sadamichi's (former CO of KISO) Wake Island Attack Force's CruDiv 18’s TATSUTA and TENRYU, DesRon 6's light cruiser YUBARI, DesDiv 29’s OITE and HAYATE, DesDiv 30’s KISARAGI, MUTSUKI, YAYOI and MOCHIZUKI, two converted destroyer transports and transports KONGO MARU and KINRYU MARU.


................

Concerning the Aircraft on the Carriers:

At Wake:

They Launched 29 Val's out of a total of 38 on Board, but that does not mean that those 9 planes were down for repairs, some could of been held in reserve or a few on ASW or Scouting patrols.

They launched 33 Kates out of a total of 42, see above...

Any idea if any of the Planes were nonoperational? (This would Include the Zero's)

Also I would assume the Spare planes had Spare crews to go along with them?



Again, TY for the Help!

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fontessa
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Re: Wake Quest

Post by fontessa » 08 Jan 2022 22:33

Brady wrote:
08 Jan 2022 18:03
Also I would assume the Spare planes had Spare crews to go along with them?
I don’t think so. IJN couldn't afford to have spare crew members.
I think the spares were assembled only when the returned plane was so damaged that it couldn't be repaired by the next sortie or the damage was so severe that it could not be repaired.

fontessa

Brady
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Re: Wake Quest

Post by Brady » 09 Jan 2022 00:23

Anyone have any Images from the Japanese perspective of operations At Wake, either from the Cariers, or any of the other Ships/Aircraft ?

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fontessa
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Re: Wake Quest

Post by fontessa » 09 Jan 2022 01:17

Brady wrote:
09 Jan 2022 00:23
Anyone have any Images from the Japanese perspective of operations At Wake, either from the Cariers, or any of the other Ships/Aircraft ?

ウエーク島.jpg

ウエーク島 萩.jpg

ウエーク島 舞鎮特別陸戦隊.jpg


fontessa
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Brady
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Re: Wake Quest

Post by Brady » 09 Jan 2022 01:18

Fantastic!

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Re: Wake Quest

Post by daveshoup2MD » 09 Jan 2022 02:31

There are probably IJN photographs of Hayate and KIsaragi being sunk, as well.

Brady
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Re: Wake Quest

Post by Brady » 10 Jan 2022 00:40

It would seam they had room on board and the Spares were not necessarily dissembled:

CV name - Planned plane strength in Sept. 1941/Authorized plane strength for October 1941/Number of planes carried at PH operation
"Akagi" - 72/72/66
"Kaga" - 81/72/75
"Soryu" - 57/63/57
"Hiryu" - 57/63/57
"Shokaku" - 72/81/72
"Zuikaku" - 72/81/72

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fontessa
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Re: Wake Quest

Post by fontessa » 10 Jan 2022 04:35

Hello Brady,
Brady wrote:
10 Jan 2022 00:40
It would seam they had room on board and the Spares were not necessarily dissembled:
I don't think so.
See the billow which sows the back half of the upper hanger of Hiryu. Very crowded. There was a spare wings storage room. The rest of the spares were distributed and stored in other places.

飛龍格納庫.jpg


Brady wrote:
10 Jan 2022 00:40
CV name - Planned plane strength in Sept. 1941/Authorized plane strength for October 1941/Number of planes carried at PH operation
"Akagi" - 72/72/66
"Kaga" - 81/72/75
"Soryu" - 57/63/57
"Hiryu" - 57/63/57
"Shokaku" - 72/81/72
"Zuikaku" - 72/81/72
The following is the number of aircraft boarded on carriers and the attack formation in Pearl Harbor Attack according to Senshi Sosho (Japan Official War History). There is no more reliable numbers. Except Akagi and Kaga, your numbers match them.

Numbers of Airplane Boarded on Carriers
Akagi
Zeek: 18 + (3) = 21
Val: 18 + (3) = 21
Kate: 27 + (3) = 30
Total: 63 + (9) = 72
Kaga
Zeek: 18 + (3) = 21
Val: 27 + (3) = 30
Kate: 27 + (3) = 30
Total: 72 + (9) = 81
Hiryu, Soru
Zeek: 18 + (3) = 21
Val: 18 + (3) = 21
Kate: 18 + (3) = 21
Total: 54 + (9) = 63
Shokaku, Zuikaku
Zeek: 18 + (3) = 21
Val: 27 + (3) = 30
Kate: 27 + (3) = 30
Total: 72 + (9) = 81

Attack Formation
Akagi
Zeek : 9 (1st Wave) + 9 (1st Wave) + ??? (Cap)
Val: 0 (1st Wave) + 18 (250kg x 18 / 2nd Wave)
Kate: 12 (Torpedo / 1st Wave) + 15 (800kg Bomb / 1st Wave)
Kaga
Zeek : 9 (1st Wave) + 9 (1st Wave) + ??? (Cap)
Val: 0 (1st Wave) + 26 (250kg x 26 / 2nd Wave)
Kate: 12 (Torpedo / 1st Wave) + 14 (800kg Bomb / 1st Wave)
Hryu
Zeek : 6 (1st Wave) + 9 (2nd Wave) + ??? (Cap)
Val 18 (250kg x 17 / 2nd Wave)
Kate: 8 (Torpedo / 1st Wave) +10 (800kg Bomb / 1st Wave)
Soryu
Zeek : 8 (1st Wave) + 9 (2nd Wave) + ??? (Cap)
Val 18 (250kg x 17 / 2nd Wave)
Kate: 8 (Torpedo / 1st Wave) +10 (800kg Bomb / 1st Wave)
Shokaku
Zeek : 5 (1st Wave) + 0 (2nd Wave) + ??? (Cap)
Val: 9 (250kg Bomb / 1st Wave) + 0 (2nd Wave)
Kate 0 (1st Wave) + 27 (250kg x 41 + 60k x 48 / 2nd Wave)
Zuikaku
Zeek : 6 (1st Wave) + 0 (2nd Wave) + ??? (Cap)
Val: 17 (250kg Bomb 1st) + 0 (2nd Wave)
Kate 0 (1st Wave) + 27 (250kg x 36 + 60k x 108 / 2nd Wave)

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