Wake Quest

[Eugen Pinak]

First of all, if you use US codenames of IJN planes, you should use correct names. A6M was not "Zeek", it was "Zeke".

Now what I know about air groups.
1. There were no spare planes aboard IJN carriers. They were officially assigned, but not carried aboard. When carried, they were usually dissassembled (wings detached from the hull.

2. For Pearl Harbor attack each carrier received 3 extra fighters and 3-5 extra pilots. Those were not spare, they flew operationally.

3. There is still no detailed data on actual plane losses at Pearl Harbor. Number of 29 planes counts only planes lost over or near Pearl Harbor, and doesn't mention planes lost near Kido Butai during forced landings or seriously damaged in battle.

[Eugen Pinak]

See the billow which sows the back half of the upper hanger of Hiryu. Very crowded. There was a spare wings storage room. The rest of the spares were distributed and stored in other places.

Actually, fuselages of the spare planes (A5M IIRC) are located in the hangar just to the left of spare wings compartment - see 4 elongated things there.
Also planes in the middle are not A6M fighters, but D1A1 dive bombers. That's the early drawing of "iryu" hangar in 1939 when it carried A5M, D1A1 and B5N1.

[Brady]

First of all, if you use US codenames of IJN planes, you should use correct names. A6M was not "Zeek", it was "Zeke".

Now what I know about air groups.
1. There were no spare planes aboard IJN carriers. They were officially assigned, but not carried aboard. When carried, they were usually dissassembled (wings detached from the hull.

2. For Pearl Harbor attack each carrier received 3 extra fighters and 3-5 extra pilots. Those were not spare, they flew operationally.

3. There is still no detailed data on actual plane losses at Pearl Harbor. Number of 29 planes counts only planes lost over or near Pearl Harbor, and doesn't mention planes lost near Kido Butai during forced landings or seriously damaged in battle.

9 December (local):
One A6M2 CAP fighter crashed and went overboard while landing on SORYU. Pilot lost. (TROMS)

So, just because we have this one reference for an operational los it does not mean that, that were not others?

Back to the Subject at hand:

They Launched 29 Val's out of a total of 38 on Board, but that does not mean that those 9 planes were down for repairs, some could of been held in reserve or a few on ASW or Scouting patrols.

They launched 33 Kates out of a total of 42, see above...

I can't help but think that Aside from the aircraft committed to the strike package that there were not some Held in reserve or on ASW or Scouting sorties.

What did Hiryu and Soryu's escort consist of While they were operating Off Wake ?


The Use of the term spare is a bit confusing; it suggests that they were carried in a disassembled state as there was no more room for a fully assembled aircraft, and with regard to Aircrew that they were on hand to replace wounded or lost Aircrew to either man the "Spare" aircraft, or to replace the wounded or dead from a sortie.

But both:

Hiryu, Soru
Zeek: 18 + (3) = 21
Val: 18 + (3) = 21
Kate: 18 + (3) = 21
Total: 54 + (9) = 63

Seam to of been operating at Max capacity.

And we have no way of really knowing the fate of or the condition of Those planes believed to be still on board that were not in the strike packages that were sortied over Wake?

But we do know the Number of Aircrew before the Operation at Pearl Harbor and Upon their return to Japan?

[Eugen Pinak]

9 December (local):
One A6M2 CAP fighter crashed and went overboard while landing on SORYU. Pilot lost. (TROMS)

So, just because we have this one reference for an operational los it does not mean that, that were not others?

You have this one reference I have combat flights reports, where all losses are mentioned (save details for Pearl Harbor).

I can't help but think that Aside from the aircraft committed to the strike package that there were not some Held in reserve or on ASW or Scouting sorties.

All operational sorties are shown in combat flights reports.
Some planes may be held in reserve - but there is no proof of it.

What did Hiryu and Soryu's escort consist of While they were operating Off Wake ?

Cruisers Tone and Chikuma, destroyers Tanikaze and Urakaze.

And we have no way of really knowing the fate of or the condition of Those planes believed to be still on board that were not in the strike packages that were sortied over Wake?

No.

But we do know the Number of Aircrew before the Operation at Pearl Harbor and Upon their return to Japan?

No.

[Brady]

I can't help but think that Aside from the aircraft committed to the strike package that there were not some Held in reserve or on ASW or Scouting sorties.

All operational sorties are shown in combat flights reports.
Some planes may be held in reserve - but there is no proof of it.

Does this mean that ASW or Search Missions, are not considered operational sorties?

Or, that there are some listed as having been launched during the time of the Attacks on Wake?

What did Hiryu and Soryu's escort consist of While they were operating Off Wake ?

Cruisers Tone and Chikuma, destroyers Tanikaze and Urakaze.[/quote]

I ask in part because I suppose it is plausible they were using there Jake's to conduct Surface Search or ASW patrols.

And we have no way of really knowing the fate of or the condition of Those planes believed to be still on board that were not in the strike packages that were sortied over Wake?

No.[/quote]

Thank you for Indulging me.

[Eugen Pinak]

I can't help but think that Aside from the aircraft committed to the strike package that there were not some Held in reserve or on ASW or Scouting sorties.

All operational sorties are shown in combat flights reports.
Some planes may be held in reserve - but there is no proof of it.

Does this mean that ASW or Search Missions, are not considered operational sorties?

No, they were considered and recorded. On some ships better, than on others, though.

Or, that there are some listed as having been launched during the time of the Attacks on Wake?

Yes. Several patrols were flown by both Soryu and Hiryu.

I ask in part because I suppose it is plausible they were using there Jake's to conduct Surface Search or ASW patrols.

Yes, that's possible. But I don't have reports of CRUDIV-8.

And we have no way of really knowing the fate of or the condition of Those planes believed to be still on board that were not in the strike packages that were sortied over Wake?

No.

Thank you for Indulging me.

You are welcome. Alas, I don't think you'll manage to find detailed data on Japanese losses during Pearl Harbor and Wake operations.

[Brady]

So, to Summarize this is what we Know (Please correct me if I am wrong):

Prior to Pear Harbor Hiryu & Soryu Had on Board:


Zero: 18 + (3) = 21
Val: 18 + (3) = 21
Kate: 18 + (3) = 21
Total: 54 + (9) = 63

Loss at Pearl Harbor
Zero [1st + 2nd]: 1 (Hiryu), 3 (Soryu)
Zero [Accident / December 10]: 0 (Hiryu), 1 (Soryu)
Val: 2 (Hiryu), 2 (Soryu)
Kate: 0 (Hiryu), 0 (Soryu)

Hiryu & Soryu At Wake:

Hiryu:

Zero: 17 + (3) = 20
Val: 16 + (3) = 19
Kate: 18 + (3) = 21
Total: 51 + (9) = 60

Soryu:

Zero: 14 + (3) = 17
Val: 16 + (3) = 19
Kate: 18 + (3) = 21
Total: 48 + (9) = 57

Attack on Wake on December 21
Zero [1st Wave]: 18 (Hiryu + Soryu)
Zero [2nd Wave]: 6 (Hiryu + Soryu)
Val: 29 (Hiryu + Soryu)
Kate: 33 (Hiryu + Soryu)

Cruisers Tone and Chikuma, destroyers Tanikaze and Urakaze were Escorting.

We know through the flight Operations records that both Hiryu & Soryu had Patrols up prior to and During the Attack's on Wake.

Hiryu & Soryu had an authorized Capacity of 63 aircraft.
.
The term "spares" can be misleading as these were operational aircraft with crews.


............................................

Question's

Do we know how many planes and what type(s) were out on Patrols during the attack sorties ?

Do we known What the Fuel State was on Hiryu & Soryu and here Escorts at Wake ?

My Understanding was the KB had considerable reserves when they Departed Hawaii for Japan, so presumably they were in good shape, but do we have a % available for them at Wake?

[fontessa]

First of all, if you use US codenames of IJN planes, you should use correct names. A6M was not "Zeek", it was "Zeke".

Thanks for the correction.

See the billow which sows the back half of the upper hanger of Hiryu. Very crowded. There was a spare wings storage room. The rest of the spares were distributed and stored in other places.

Actually, fuselages of the spare planes (A5M IIRC) are located in the hangar just to the left of spare wings compartment - see 4 elongated things there.
Also planes in the middle are not A6M fighters, but D1A1 dive bombers. That's the early drawing of "iryu" hangar in 1939 when it carried A5M, D1A1 and B5N1.

Thanks for the correction.

Hiryu, Soru
Zeek: 18 + (3) = 21
Val: 18 + (3) = 21
Kate: 18 + (3) = 21
Total: 54 + (9) = 63

Now I can’t say that there were reserves.

3. There is still no detailed data on actual plane losses at Pearl Harbor. Number of 29 planes counts only planes lost over or near Pearl Harbor, and doesn't mention planes lost near Kido Butai during forced landings or seriously damaged in battle.

Yokosuka Naval Air Group created the evaluation of the Perl Harbor Attack. You may wonder, "Why was this unit evaluated?" In fact, this unit was also conducting "Tactical Research" and was in a position to give opinions in the design review of new fighters. By the way, they always prioritized "Dogfight Ability" (so required "low wing loading") and confronted the operating units that insisted on "High Speed" (so required "high wing loading").
Their report says about “the losses in Perl Harbor” as the below;
1st Wave
0545ヨリ0830ノ間ニ自爆機艦戦3機、艦爆1機、艦攻5機ヲ除キ全機帰艦セリ
All airplanes except 3 Zeak, 1 Val, and 5 Kate losses returned aircraft carriers between 5:45 am and 8:30 am.
2nd Wave
0700ヨリ0830ノ間ニ自爆機艦戦6機、艦爆14機ヲ除キ全機帰艦収容セリ
All airplanes except 6 Zeak and 14 Val losses returned aircraft carriers 7:00 am and 8:30 am.
So the number of the losses before 8:30 am was 29. It didn’t contain 9 December (local):
One A6M2 CAP fighter crashed and went overboard while landing on SORYU. Pilot lost.

Yokosuka Naval Air Group Report shows overall losses as the below;
It didn’t contain 9 December (local):
One A6M2 CAP fighter crashed and went overboard while landing on SORYU. Pilot lost.

************
Today we can see all Senshi Sosho on the web although in Kanji.
https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%88%A6 ... 2%E6%9B%B8
We can see the above chart in 10 ハワイ作戦of the table below .


fontessa

[Brady]

Thanks, Fontessa, great info there, interesting only one plane required Depo repair, the rest were done on the CV's.

Given how many were operational on Hiryu & Soryu At Wake, it would seam in the time between Peal Harbor and Wake that they were clearly Fixed, or most were.


What Volume of the Senshi Sosho covers Wake ?

[Eugen Pinak]

Fontessa - you are always welcome.

Their report says about “the losses in Perl Harbor” as the below;
1st Wave
0545ヨリ0830ノ間ニ自爆機艦戦3機、艦爆1機、艦攻5機ヲ除キ全機帰艦セリ
All airplanes except 3 Zeak, 1 Val, and 5 Kate losses returned aircraft carriers between 5:45 am and 8:30 am.
2nd Wave
0700ヨリ0830ノ間ニ自爆機艦戦6機、艦爆14機ヲ除キ全機帰艦収容セリ
All airplanes except 6 Zeak and 14 Val losses returned aircraft carriers 7:00 am and 8:30 am.
So the number of the losses before 8:30 am was 29. It didn’t contain 9 December (local):
One A6M2 CAP fighter crashed and went overboard while landing on SORYU. Pilot lost.

Yokosuka Naval Air Group Report shows overall losses as the below;
It didn’t contain 9 December (local):
One A6M2 CAP fighter crashed and went overboard while landing on SORYU. Pilot lost.


真珠湾 損失.jpg

There is interesting discrepancy here. Sum of lost planes equals 30, not 29. Crash-landed B5N from Soryu is not mentioned as lost even if it was lost due to the battle damage.

[Eugen Pinak]

What Volume of the Senshi Sosho covers Wake ?

A bit in 10 and 38 volumes.

[fontessa]

the rest were done on the CV's.

I guess most of the "repair on CV's" was "With a patch close the hole made by the ammunition".

What Volume of the Senshi Sosho covers Wake ?

Vol. 10 ハワイ作戦
二 ウエーキ攻略作戦増援発令 2 Ordered the reinforcement to Wake capture operation (pp415 - 418 / frames 218 - 220)
六 ウエーキ攻撃隊の作戦と帰投 6 The Operation and the Return of Wake Attack Force (pp435 - 139 / frames 228 - 230)
(1) CarDev2 was despatched to Wake.
(2) The loss of Soryu Zeke was mentioned in p410 / frame 216) See Soryu Air Unit Action Report below.

There is interesting discrepancy here. Sum of lost planes equals 30, not 29. Crash-landed B5N from Soryu is not mentioned as lost even if it was lost due to the battle damage.

This Kate landed near a destroyer due to an engine malfunction, but all its crew members were rescued. Since it was not a loss due to battle, it probably was not counted as a "loss". I would guess that only the loss due to the battle was of concern to Naval Air Group.

fontessa

[Brady]

Does it mention Hiryu & Soryu's Fuel status anywhere at Wake out upon returning to Japan?

[fontessa]

Does it mention Hiryu & Soryu's Fuel status anywhere at Wake out upon returning to Japan?

CarDiv2 refueled on December 15,
Returned to Japan without refueling.

CarDiv2 Refuel.jpg (44.72 KiB) Viewed 1377 times

fontessa

[Brady]

Does it mention Hiryu & Soryu's Fuel status anywhere at Wake out upon returning to Japan?

CarDiv2 refueled on December 15,
Returned to Japan without refueling.




CarDiv2 Refuel.jpg


fontessa

O, WoW, they Refueled after the PH Strike!

So they must of been Pretty Full at Wake.

Presumably the Tankers went Home to Japan after refueling them ?

Thanks