Wake Quest

Discussions on all aspects of the Japanese Empire, from the capture of Taiwan until the end of the Second World War.
Brady
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Re: Wake Quest

Post by Brady » 12 Jan 2022 21:28

Do we know what Tankers were involved in the Refueling on the 15th and what there escorts were ?

I just went through the TROM's for all the Listed IJN tankers, and while some say they were On Station on the 14 th of December for the rendezvous, non-mention refueling on the 15th, not that I entirely trust the TROM's, the TROM's do mention refueling on the 21 st, but this is in reference to the bulk of KB, afik.
Last edited by Brady on 13 Jan 2022 00:23, edited 1 time in total.

Eugen Pinak
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Re: Wake Quest

Post by Eugen Pinak » 12 Jan 2022 22:04

fontessa wrote:
11 Jan 2022 22:18
This Kate landed near a destroyer due to an engine malfunction, but all its crew members were rescued. Since it was not a loss due to battle, it probably was not counted as a "loss". I would guess that only the loss due to the battle was of concern to Naval Air Group.
May be.
But I'm really surprised, because kodochosho mentioned just "losses" in the relevant part, not "loss due to the battle".

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fontessa
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Re: Wake Quest

Post by fontessa » 13 Jan 2022 08:12

Brady wrote:
12 Jan 2022 21:28
Do we know what Tankers were involved in the Refueling on the 15th and what there escorts were ?
Very sorry, it was my mistake.
I would like to show the movement of CarDiv2 including refueling below.


December 9
1st Air Fleet rendezvous with the 1st Supply Unit and started refueling to the Guard Unit (Abukuma + DDs), but the waves were high and the work took until midnight.
The CAP was done by Zeak of Souryu, but as already mentioned, one Zeak fell into the sea due to Sryu’s shaking.
December 15
Combined Fleet Commanding Officer ordered the relief for the Battle of Wake Island.
December 16
1st Air Fleet Commanding Officer ordered the below relief for the Battle of Wake Island.
- 2nd Air Squadron
- 8th Squadron
- DD Tanikaze, DD Urakaze
- 1st Supply Unit
Combined Fleet Commanding Officer ordered 2nd Supply Unit and DD Kasumi to return to Kure.
December 17
1st Supply Unit refueled to 2nd Air Squadron, 8th Squadron, and 2 DDs
1st Supply Unit was detached from the rest and headed Kure.
December 21
18 Zeak, 27 Val, and 2 Kate (for guiding)
December 22
6 Zeak, 33 Kate
2 Kate were shot down and 1 Kate crash-landed (no crew loss)
December 23
1 st Wave: 6 Zeak and 6 Val
2nd Wave: 6 Zeak and 6 Val
3rd Wave: 2 Zeak and 9 Kate
4th Wave: 3 Zeak and 9 Kate
5th Wave: 3 Zeak and 9 Kate
Question: Which is correct? 3 Zeak and 9 Kate / 3 Zeaks and 9 Kates
December 24
Refueled from Soryu to DDs.
December 25
1st Air Fleet Commanding Officer ordered the return to Kure.
December 29
Arrived Kure.


Tankers for 1st Air Fleet
第1補給隊 1st Supply Unit: 極東丸 Kyokuto Maru, 健洋丸 Kenyo Maru, 国洋丸Kokuyo Maru, 神国丸 Shinkoku Maru
第2補給隊 2nd Supply Unit: 東邦丸 Toho Maru, 東栄丸 Toei Maru, 日本丸 Nippon Maru

真珠湾 油槽船.jpg



About the Battles of Wake Island, for your some references:

Wake Capture 1.jpg

Wake Capture 2.jpg

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ijnfleetadmiral
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Re: Wake Quest

Post by ijnfleetadmiral » 13 Jan 2022 12:34

daveshoup2MD wrote:
09 Jan 2022 02:31
There are probably IJN photographs of Hayate and KIsaragi being sunk, as well.
To my knowledge, no photos of either ship's final moments exist.

What I have for these ships at the time of their losses, plus PB-32 and PB-33:

PB-32 - LT MORI Tsugio (Res.)
PB-33 - LT NISHIO Tadashi (Res.)

HAYATE
Commanding Officer: LCDR / CDR* TAKATSUKA Minoru (56)
Torpedo Officer: LTJG / LT* AIURA Kotaro (66)
Gunnery Officer: LTJG / LT* TABATA Suketaro (Spec. Duty 10)
Navigator: LTJG / LT* TSUJI Morishige (67)
Chief Engineer: LT (Eng.) / LCDR (Eng.)* HAMATANI Hisakichi (Spec. Duty)

KISARAGI
Commanding Officer: LCDR / CDR* OGAWA Yoichiro (57)
Torpedo Officer: LTJG / LT* TANAKA Minoru (67)
Gunnery Officer: LT / LCDR* IGAWA Yoshizo (Spec. Duty)
Navigator: LTJG / LT* KURIYA Kotaro (66)
Chief Engineer: LTJG (Eng.) / LT (Eng.)* KAMATA Toshiyuki (Spec. Duty)
SFC, MS State Guard - First Always!

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fontessa
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Re: Wake Quest

Post by fontessa » 13 Jan 2022 13:39

I noticed there is a mismatch in the positions of PB32 and PB33.
Unfortunately, I cannot determine which is wrong now.

ウエーク島 PB32 PB33.jpg

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Brady
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Re: Wake Quest

Post by Brady » 13 Jan 2022 15:46

Fontessa, Fantastic Detail TY for all that.

ijnfleetadmiral, As well, thanks.


Because this is entirely an IJN operation there are no IJA Shiping Engineers present to man the Daihatsu's like there would be if this was an IJA operation, I am curious as to what unit the Daihatsu's belong to in the IJN?

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fontessa
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Re: Wake Quest

Post by fontessa » 13 Jan 2022 17:09

Hello Brady,
Brady wrote:
13 Jan 2022 15:46
I am curious as to what unit the Daihatsu's belong to in the IJN?
In 1940, old 11 destroyers were refurbished into patrol boats by the removal of half of the engines, rear guns, and all torpedo tubes. As mentioned in the picture below, the were actually transport ships for landing operations. For this purpose, they could carry one or two Daihatsu - I think belonged to the PB It was / they ware on.

PB-1 Class:DD Shimakaze → PB-1, DD Nadakaze → PB-2
PB-31 Class: DD Kiku → PB-31, DD Aoi → PB-32, DD Hagi → PB-33, DD Susuki → PB-34, DD Tsuta → PB-35, DDFujiuji → PB-36, DD Hishi → PB-37, DD Yomogi → PB-38, DD Tade → PB-39


第1号 第31号型 哨戒艇.jpg

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Last edited by fontessa on 13 Jan 2022 18:51, edited 1 time in total.

Brady
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Re: Wake Quest

Post by Brady » 13 Jan 2022 17:33

Oh wow that’s interesting, yes the PB label is confusing And they could launch them off the stern that’s even more interesting, Much like modern patrol craft do today.

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fontessa
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Re: Wake Quest

Post by fontessa » 13 Jan 2022 18:21

Hello Brady,
Brady wrote:
13 Jan 2022 17:33
Oh wow that’s interesting, yes the PB label is confusing And they could launch them off the stern that’s even more interesting, Much like modern patrol craft do today.
Yes, "the slope of the stern" was a specialty of Japan.
Do you know 神州丸 Shinshu Maru? She could launch many Dihatsu rapidly using the slope of the stern. IJA built her in 1934 when the United States and Britain never thought about it.

神州丸.jpg

fontessa
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daveshoup2MD
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Re: Wake Quest

Post by daveshoup2MD » 13 Jan 2022 19:53

ijnfleetadmiral wrote:
13 Jan 2022 12:34
daveshoup2MD wrote:
09 Jan 2022 02:31
There are probably IJN photographs of Hayate and KIsaragi being sunk, as well.
To my knowledge, no photos of either ship's final moments exist.

What I have for these ships at the time of their losses, plus PB-32 and PB-33:

PB-32 - LT MORI Tsugio (Res.)
PB-33 - LT NISHIO Tadashi (Res.)

HAYATE
Commanding Officer: LCDR / CDR* TAKATSUKA Minoru (56)
Torpedo Officer: LTJG / LT* AIURA Kotaro (66)
Gunnery Officer: LTJG / LT* TABATA Suketaro (Spec. Duty 10)
Navigator: LTJG / LT* TSUJI Morishige (67)
Chief Engineer: LT (Eng.) / LCDR (Eng.)* HAMATANI Hisakichi (Spec. Duty)

KISARAGI
Commanding Officer: LCDR / CDR* OGAWA Yoichiro (57)
Torpedo Officer: LTJG / LT* TANAKA Minoru (67)
Gunnery Officer: LT / LCDR* IGAWA Yoshizo (Spec. Duty)
Navigator: LTJG / LT* KURIYA Kotaro (66)
Chief Engineer: LTJG (Eng.) / LT (Eng.)* KAMATA Toshiyuki (Spec. Duty)
Perhaps not; in any event, losing two destroyers and two APD-equivalents, with fair elements of their crews and troops carried, has to count as the toughest defense by any garrison fighting an amphibious assault in WW II.

Brady
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Re: Wake Quest

Post by Brady » 13 Jan 2022 20:07

fontessa wrote:
13 Jan 2022 18:21
Hello Brady,
Brady wrote:
13 Jan 2022 17:33
Oh wow that’s interesting, yes the PB label is confusing And they could launch them off the stern that’s even more interesting, Much like modern patrol craft do today.
Yes, "the slope of the stern" was a specialty of Japan.
Do you know 神州丸 Shinshu Maru? She could launch many Dihatsu rapidly using the slope of the stern. IJA built her in 1934 when the United States and Britain never thought about it.


神州丸.jpg


fontessa
Yes, A very interesting Ship to be sure, nice diagram, IJA Shiping Engineer regiments are also very interesting, more of a plug and play kind of concept that allowed for a lot more flexibility than their American or British Counterparts.

btw, what's the Red and Purple areas denoting ?
Last edited by Brady on 13 Jan 2022 20:10, edited 1 time in total.

Brady
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Re: Wake Quest

Post by Brady » 13 Jan 2022 20:08

daveshoup2MD wrote:
13 Jan 2022 19:53


Perhaps not; in any event, losing two destroyers and two APD-equivalents, with fair elements of their crews and troops carried, has to count as the toughest defense by any garrison fighting an amphibious assault in WW II.
Were Either of the APD's recovered ?

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Re: Wake Quest

Post by daveshoup2MD » 13 Jan 2022 20:10

fontessa wrote:
13 Jan 2022 18:21
Hello Brady,
Brady wrote:
13 Jan 2022 17:33
Oh wow that’s interesting, yes the PB label is confusing And they could launch them off the stern that’s even more interesting, Much like modern patrol craft do today.
Yes, "the slope of the stern" was a specialty of Japan.
Do you know 神州丸 Shinshu Maru? She could launch many Dihatsu rapidly using the slope of the stern. IJA built her in 1934 when the United States and Britain never thought about it.


神州丸.jpg


fontessa
The USN built and designed dedicated amphibious transports (Henderson and Heywood) with dedicated boat groups and facilities before and after WW I (Heywood was designed but not built); the British had been involved with the Danube flo-flo ferry designs that gave rise to the LSD as far back as the 1920s. Shinshu Maru is impressive for actually being designed and built, but both the USN and the British were considering similar concepts a decade earlier.
Last edited by daveshoup2MD on 13 Jan 2022 22:30, edited 1 time in total.

daveshoup2MD
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Re: Wake Quest

Post by daveshoup2MD » 13 Jan 2022 20:13

Brady wrote:
13 Jan 2022 20:08
daveshoup2MD wrote:
13 Jan 2022 19:53


Perhaps not; in any event, losing two destroyers and two APD-equivalents, with fair elements of their crews and troops carried, has to count as the toughest defense by any garrison fighting an amphibious assault in WW II.
Were Either of the APD's recovered ?
Nope. Both listed as "beached and sunk" in Warships of the Imperial Japanese Navy at Wake in 1941. CTLs, at the least...

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fontessa
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Re: Wake Quest

Post by fontessa » 13 Jan 2022 22:06

daveshoup2MD wrote:
13 Jan 2022 20:10
The USN built and designed dedicated amphibious transports (Henderson and Heywood) with dedicated boat groups and facilities before and after WW I (Heywood was designed but not built); the British had been involved with the Danube flo-flo ferry designs that gave rise to the LSD as far back as the 1920s. Shinshu Maru is impressive for actually being designed and built, but both the USN and the British were considering similar concepts a decade earlier.
Oh, I would like to withdraw "1934 when the United States and Britain never thought about it.".
One question, Was U.S. Navy category AP intended landing operations?

fontessa

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