Wake Quest

Discussions on all aspects of the Japanese Empire, from the capture of Taiwan until the end of the Second World War.
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fontessa
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Re: Wake Quest

#76

Post by fontessa » 24 Jan 2022, 20:24

Hello Brady,
Brady wrote:
23 Jan 2022, 22:21
Is there then a Reference for the Planes in December of 41, or is that what we have seen above (before in this thread)?
I corrected my previous post a bit.
"Airplanes on paper" depend on sources other than Action Report and War Diary.

Airplanes on paper / 24th Naval Air Squadron
December 1, 1941
- Chitose Naval Air Group: Betty and Nell x 36 / ???
- Yokohama Naval Air Group: Navis x 24 / ???
January 1, 1942
- Chitose Naval Air Group: Betty and Nell x 36 / ???
- Yokohama Naval Air Group: Navis x 24 / ???
February 1, 1942
- Chitose Naval Air Group: Betty and Nell x 36 / ???
- Yokohama Naval Air Group: Navis x 24 / ???
March 1, 1942
- Chitose Naval Air Group: Betty and Nell x 36 / ???
- Yokohama Naval Air Group: Navis x 24 / ???
- 4th Air Group: 36 / 12
4th Air Group was organized from Chitose Naval Air Group Rabaul Dispatch Unit and Takao Naval Air Group.
April 1, 1942
25th Naval Air Group was activated.
The areas in charge were as follows;
Airplanes on parer Before April 1
- 24th Naval Air Group (Solomon and Marshall)
----- Chitose Naval Air Group: Betty x 36 / 12 + Jake x 36 / 12
----- 4th Air Group: Betty x 36 / 12
Airplanes on parer After April 1
- 24th Naval Air Group (Marshall)
----- Chitose Naval Air Group: Betty x 27 / 9 + Jake x 27 / 9
----- 1st Air Group: Betty x 27 / 9 + Jake x 27 / 9
----- 14th Air Group: Navis x 18 / 6
- 25th Naval Air Group (Solomon)
---- 4th Air Group: Betty and Nell x 36 / 12
---- Tainan Naval Air Group: Jake x 45 / 15 + Babs and Judy x 6 / 2
---- Yokohama Naval Air Group: Navis x 12 / 4 + Rufe x 9 / 3

fontessa

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Re: Wake Quest

#77

Post by Brady » 26 Jan 2022, 17:49

Image

I received the above book, and it has cleared up the Transport plane question:

Image

Image

Image

So the transport H6K's Noted as 8 above may well of only been 6, and they would not of been on the Official Establishment of the Yokohama NAG, but part of it.

The Other "Transport" unit listed as being present would of been the Land based Transport aircraft tied to the Command's present in the marshals, Either the 4th Fleet or the 24 th Air Flotilla, or both:

Image

Image

SO If I am understanding that right each of the Commands present my of had somewhere between 4-12 Planes each, but there is o mention as to what Type of of aircraft, they may have had on hand.


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Re: Wake Quest

#78

Post by fontessa » 27 Jan 2022, 00:06

Sorry, I can't catch your topic.

fontessa

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Re: Wake Quest

#79

Post by Brady » 27 Jan 2022, 18:30

fontessa wrote:
27 Jan 2022, 00:06
Sorry, I can't catch your topic.

fontessa
We know so far, that in the marshals at the start of the war:

Air Flotilla 24
Air Attack Force 1 34 G3M-2 Type 96 Navy bombers (1 G4M) (Chitose Air Groupe) (at Roi on the 8th)
Chitose Air Groupe Fighter Squadron - 36 total Type 96 Initially at Toroa but also at Roi for air defense on the eve of war.
The 19th NAG had 6 Jakes
Yokohama Air Group 24 x H6K's

Then there were the H6K transports, that were tied to the Yokohama Air Group, and this is where the question come in, clearly, they were Civilian Transports operating under the IJN Controle, but the above reference suggests that 2 of the known 8 that were attached to the 24'th were servicing routes outside of the Marshals, but that is not specifically stated as being so in December of 41.

Now according to the Reference above IJN transport aircraft were assigned to the "Commands", Nafizegar Notes above that 11 land-based transports were working in the Marshals, and this number would be consistent with how many might be assigned to Either the 4 th Fleet or the 24 Air Flotilla.

Either of which could of had up to 12 Transport planes assigned to them.

But we dont know, what Types of Land based Transports they were using or whether or not the 4 th Fleet or the 24 Air Flotilla's actual transports are being counted in full, there may of been more on hand than the 11.

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Re: Wake Quest

#80

Post by fontessa » 28 Jan 2022, 01:26

All I know is that "Imperial Japanese Airways" had a close relationship with the Army and Navy and operated air routes by flying boats in the South Sea.
Perhaps the airline received appropriate support from the Army and Navy in terms of personnel and equipment.
I can't confirm any more with the materials at hand. I will try to find the right material.

fontessa

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Re: Wake Quest

#81

Post by Brady » 28 Jan 2022, 03:11

fontessa wrote:
28 Jan 2022, 01:26
All I know is that "Imperial Japanese Airways" had a close relationship with the Army and Navy and operated air routes by flying boats in the South Sea.
Perhaps the airline received appropriate support from the Army and Navy in terms of personnel and equipment.
I can't confirm any more with the materials at hand. I will try to find the right material.

fontessa
Yes, according to the reference above the Japanese government purchased a controlling interest in it before the war.

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Re: Wake Quest

#82

Post by fontessa » 01 Feb 2022, 10:06

Hello Brady,

The source is 大日本航空社史 the History of Dai Nippon Airways.
大日本航空 Dai Nippon Airways has signed individual contracts with IJA and IJN. Under a contract with IJN, officials were recruited to the Navy in the form of commissions. At that time, the company had 18 type 97 transport flying boats, all of which were recruited by the Navy too. FIG3 shows the route map for the contract with the Navy of Dai Nippon Airways. I would like to explain based on it. The routes starting from Tokyo on the left side were for ground-based transport airplanes such as Type100h Transport Airplanes. The routes starting from Yokohama were for flying boats. From Yokohama to the south and from Saipan to the south were in charge of the 5th Conscript Transport Unit (CTA5), and from Saipan to the east was the share of the 6th Conscript Transport Unit (CTA6). The Niehorster site states that 24th Naval Air Flotilla had conscription, it is 6th Conscript Transport Unit. I think that CTA6 was not a part of 24th Flotilla, but simply that 24th Flotilla supported CTA6’s maintenance and supply. Similarly, 25th Flotilla may have supported CAT6, which was active in the Solomon area. CTA6 headquarters was located in Saipan. Unfortunately, I don't know where and how many 97 transport flying boats were deployed.


大日本航空 97式飛行艇.jpg
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大日本航空徴用輸送飛行隊.jpg
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大日本航空路線.jpg


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Re: Wake Quest

#83

Post by fontessa » 01 Feb 2022, 12:41

Addition;
Brady wrote:
27 Jan 2022, 18:30
Now according to the Reference above IJN transport aircraft were assigned to the "Commands", Nafizegar Notes above that 11 land-based transports were working in the Marshals, and this number would be consistent with how many might be assigned to Either the 4 th Fleet or the 24 Air Flotilla.
I don’t think so. First of all, it can be thought that there was a transport unit as 24 Air Flotilla, but there is no description in 24 Air Flotilla War Diary. The next thought was that transport planes were attached to 24 Air Flotilla HQ. Certainly, there were such examples. However, the number of such airplanes would be two or three at most. According to 24 Air Flotilla War Diary in June 1942, 26 NCOs / enlisted, 7 mechanics, and 5 supply men. They were inadequate to operate 11 transport planes.

More addition;
Brady wrote:
27 Jan 2022, 18:30
大日本航空徴用輸送飛行隊 2.jpg
大日本航空徴用輸送飛行隊 2.jpg (28.2 KiB) Viewed 1712 times
The above is correct. According to the air route map, 4th Conscript Transport Unit seems to be connected with 5th Conscript Transport Unit at Davao. The "lower area" air routes than Davao belonged to CTA4. Since this area was an important resource zone, there was a lot of transport demand within this area. Therefore, 10 Douglas DC-3 transport planes and 2 Nell modified transport airplanes were attached to CTA4. It was about this level due to Japan's poor transportation ability. Therefore, it is absolutely unthinkable to deploy 11 land-based transport planes in Mariana, which seems to be the "end of the earth." By the way, according to 25th Air Flotilla War Diary in July 1943, only 7 enlisted was attached to 25th Air Flotilla HQ, no mechanic.

fontessa

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Re: Wake Quest

#84

Post by Brady » 01 Feb 2022, 17:33

Thank you for that huge peace of Work, I certainly apricate it.


It would seem that the Planes were occupied with the routes, and not necessarily free for tasking outside those routes?

For instance, the 8 transport H6K's noted as being in the Marshals and attached to the 24 th (for support) would they of participated in providing transport to Wake or Tarawa of men and material after their capture, or were they otherwise occupied on the scheduled routes back to Yokoyama?

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Re: Wake Quest

#85

Post by Brady » 01 Feb 2022, 17:47

On a slightly different tack,

Prior to Pearl Harbor Hiryu & Soryu Had on Board:
Zero: 18 + (3) = 21
Val: 18 + (3) = 21
Kate: 18 + (3) = 21
Total: 54 + (9) = 63

Loss at Pearl Harbor
Zero [1st + 2nd]: 1 (Hiryu), 3 (Soryu)
Zero [Accident / December 10]: 0 (Hiryu), 1 (Soryu)
Val: 2 (Hiryu), 2 (Soryu)
Kate: 0 (Hiryu), 0 (Soryu)


Hiryu & Soryu At Wake:
Hiryu:
Zero: 17 + (3) = 20
Val: 16 + (3) = 19
Kate: 18 + (3) = 21
Total: 51 + (9) = 60

Soryu:
Zero: 14 + (3) = 17
Val: 16 + (3) = 19
Kate: 18 + (3) = 21
Total: 48 + (9) = 57

Attack on Wake on December 21
Zero [1st Wave]: 18 (Hiryu + Soryu)
Zero [2nd Wave]: 6 (Hiryu + Soryu)
Val: 29 (Hiryu + Soryu)
Kate: 33 (Hiryu + Soryu)


We dont know what crews were lost at Pearl Right, I believe I asked this before, but I wanted to be Shure.

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fontessa
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Re: Wake Quest

#86

Post by fontessa » 02 Feb 2022, 06:19

Brady wrote:
01 Feb 2022, 17:33
It would seem that the Planes were occupied with the routes, and not necessarily free for tasking outside those routes?

For instance, the 8 transport H6K's noted as being in the Marshals and attached to the 24 th (for support) would they of participated in providing transport to Wake or Tarawa of men and material after their capture, or were they otherwise occupied on the scheduled routes back to Yokoyama?
Sorry, I can't catch your question.
Brady wrote:
01 Feb 2022, 17:33
the 8 transport H6K's noted as being in the Marshals and attached to the 24 th (for support)would they of participated in providing transport to Wake or Tarawa
Can you show the evidence?
I have tried to clarify the evidence when expressing my opinion.

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Re: Wake Quest

#87

Post by Brady » 02 Feb 2022, 17:21

fontessa wrote:
02 Feb 2022, 06:19
Brady wrote:
01 Feb 2022, 17:33
It would seem that the Planes were occupied with the routes, and not necessarily free for tasking outside those routes?

For instance, the 8 transport H6K's noted as being in the Marshals and attached to the 24 th (for support) would they of participated in providing transport to Wake or Tarawa of men and material after their capture, or were they otherwise occupied on the scheduled routes back to Yokoyama?
Sorry, I can't catch your question.
Brady wrote:
01 Feb 2022, 17:33
the 8 transport H6K's noted as being in the Marshals and attached to the 24 th (for support)would they of participated in providing transport to Wake or Tarawa
Can you show the evidence?
I have tried to clarify the evidence when expressing my opinion.

fontessa
The references you show above, clearly show the routes that the transport planes used.

But the Question is, were they regularly scheduled routes.

Did the Aircraft that would fly them preform transport tasking to other locations not on those routes.

The 8 HSK's that were in the marshals for instance, it seems odd to me that they would be based there if they were not being used for transport missions in the area, and even the fact that it is mentioned that Both the 24 th NAG and the Kamoi were used at different times to provide support for them, unless they were.

Logically it would seem to me that if these planes were flying a regular route, that they would be based at a location with more support, a more central location, not at the end of a long route, unless they were supporting operations in the marshals, or Points Beyond, like Tarawa, and Wake.

That if Kwajalein was a "Hub", it would make since for the H6K's and the other (land based) transports Noted above to operate from there, as the HQ's were also there.

But that is also a Question, was the 24 th NAG HQ located in the Marshals, and was the 4 th Fleet HQ located there as well ?
Or, were there transport assets operating from there supporting operations they were tasked with.

I apricate these may be hard questions to answer, in detail, beyond what we have already found, especially since transport aircraft were not counted as on strength numbers for operational units it would seam.

Image

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Re: Wake Quest

#88

Post by fontessa » 02 Feb 2022, 22:45

Hello Brady,
Brady wrote:
02 Feb 2022, 17:21
The references you show above, clearly show the routes that the transport planes used.
But the Question is, were they regularly scheduled routes.
Did the Aircraft that would fly them preform transport tasking to other locations not on those routes.
I don’t think such a case occered. The flight between Truck, Kwajalein was scheduled.
Even between Truck, Kwajalein, flights were sluggish as follows. It is thought that there was almost no demand beyond Kwajalein.

Every other Friday: Depart Truck at 0500 → Arrive at Kwajalein at 12:40
                           ↓
Every other Saturday: Arrive at Truck 12:40 ← Depart Kwajalein at 0500
Brady wrote:
02 Feb 2022, 17:21
The 8 HSK's that were in the marshals for instance, it seems odd to me that they would be based there if they were not being used for transport missions in the area, and even the fact that it is mentioned that Both the 24 th NAG and the Kamoi were used at different times to provide support for them, unless they were.
fontessa wrote:
23 Jan 2022, 11:59
Airplanes on paper on August 1
Chitose Naval Air Group (Roi)
- Betty + Nell: 27
- Jake + Claude: 27
1st Air Group
- Betty + Nell: 27 (Taroa)
- Jake + Claude18 (Taroa) + 9 (???)
14th Air Group (???)
- Navis x 12
It became clear;
Airplanes in actual (End of April)
Chitose Naval Air Group / Dispatched a detachment to Wake as needed
- Betty + Nell: 27 (Roi)
- Jake + Claude: 27 (Roi)
1st Air Group
- Betty + Nell: 27 (Taroa)
- Jake + Claude18 (Taroa)
- Jake + Claude (Wotje)
14th Air Group
- Navis x 12 (Imiej) / Dispatched a detachment to Maxi as needed
14th NAG HQ maybe were stationed at Imiej. Their mission was bacically to air patrol (sea surface surveillance) as you have shown.
https://www.jacar.archives.go.jp/aj/met ... 3120066600 See SHT3


Brady wrote:
02 Feb 2022, 17:21
Logically it would seem to me that if these planes were flying a regular route, that they would be based at a location with more support, a more central location, not at the end of a long route, unless they were supporting operations in the marshals, or Points Beyond, like Tarawa, and Wake.
I don’t think so. See the answer to the 1st question
Brady wrote:
02 Feb 2022, 17:21
That if Kwajalein was a "Hub", it would make since for the H6K's and the other (land based) transports Noted above to operate from there, as the HQ's were also there.
There are no transport airplanes. The mission of 24th Naval Air Group was air paroles ( (sea surface surveillance)) as shown on your map.
Brady wrote:
02 Feb 2022, 17:21
But that is also a Question, was the 24 th NAG HQ located in the Marshals, and was the 4 th Fleet HQ located there as well ?
4th Fleet HQ was located at Natsushima / Truck.
Brady wrote:
02 Feb 2022, 17:21
Or, were there transport assets operating from there supporting operations they were tasked with.
I can’t agree with your belief that there should have been transport assets.
(I want you to understand such asset didn't exist.)


第24航空戦隊 哨戒.jpg
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fontessa
Last edited by fontessa on 02 Feb 2022, 23:47, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Wake Quest

#89

Post by Brady » 02 Feb 2022, 23:43

Part of the problem, is that the Transport Aircraft were not, apparently, listed as part of Combat Units operational strength, according to the reference they were there, but we have no way to see that they were on paper, or so I have been led to believe, this also would seem to the case for the Aircraft allotted to the various commands, the crew for a Tabby would be likely no more than three men, so some of the land based Transports would not of needed much in the way of crew support, especially if there operating at a base with a combat unit that could provide service and maintenance support for the aircraft and billeting for the crew.

I was hoping that we might find a way to actually track these aircraft down, but it seems that's not posable.

Image

Image

TY for translating this, what is the date for this deployment?:

Image

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Re: Wake Quest

#90

Post by fontessa » 03 Feb 2022, 03:27

Hello Brady,

I found the below information in Watanabe Hiroshi’s TROM and NAG War Diaries. The member of Transport Unit attached to 13th Air Fleet was attached to subordinate 23rd and 28th NAG HQs. Anyway, I think these measures were short-lived/temporal and not large/general as your book insists. Especially the below is nothing but a ridiculous mistake of the Allied Intelligence. There wasn't such a Naval Air Command Ignoring the normal command system.

Transport Unit attached to 2nd Air Fleet HQ: 15 June 1944 - 10 July 1944
Transport Unit attached to 3rd Air Fleet HQ: 10 July 1944 - 1 October 1944
Transport Unit attached to 11th Air Fleet HQ: 1 April 1944 - 1 August 1944
Transport Unit attached to 12th Air Fleet HQ: 10 July 1944 - ??? October 1944
Transport Unit attached to 13th Air Fleet HQ: 1 April 1944 - 15 August 1944
- 2nd Team member was temporally attached to 23rd NAG HQ
- 3rd Team member was temporally attached to 28th NAG HQ

航空艦隊司令部付輸送隊.jpg
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Brady wrote:
02 Feb 2022, 23:43
TY for translating this, what is the date for this deployment?:
End of April 1942.

fontessa

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