DD escort of CV Shinano

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Jordi Comas
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DD escort of CV Shinano

Post by Jordi Comas » 12 Feb 2022 18:58

Hi all,

Just to know the disposition of the Japanese DD Isokaze, Yukikaze, Hamakaze while escorting the unlucky CV Shinano on 29 November 1944.
Wich DD destroyer wa at her port side, starboard side and ahead.

Thank you very much
Regards

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ijnfleetadmiral
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Re: DD escort of CV Shinano

Post by ijnfleetadmiral » 12 Feb 2022 19:21

Her TROM says HAMAKAZE was in the lead, but that’s all.
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Jordi Comas
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Re: DD escort of CV Shinano

Post by Jordi Comas » 12 Feb 2022 19:24

Thank you,

Yes, but others say Isokaze.....?

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Re: DD escort of CV Shinano

Post by daveshoup2MD » 12 Feb 2022 21:33

Jordi Comas wrote:
12 Feb 2022 18:58
Hi all,

Just to know the disposition of the Japanese DD Isokaze, Yukikaze, Hamakaze while escorting the unlucky CV Shinano on 29 November 1944.
Wich DD destroyer wa at her port side, starboard side and ahead.

Thank you very much
Regards
Nothing "lucky" about it; Shinano's loss was due to poor decisions and leadership in the IJN, and excellent leadership and performance by the USN, including Capt. Enright and the crew of Archerfish, and his superiors in the Submarine Force.

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fontessa
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Re: DD escort of CV Shinano

Post by fontessa » 12 Feb 2022 22:37

ijnfleetadmiral wrote:
12 Feb 2022 19:21
Her TROM says HAMAKAZE was in the lead, but that’s all.
Jordi Comas wrote:
12 Feb 2022 19:24
Yes, but others say Isokaze.....?
There are two theories about the placement of destroyers as shown in the below chart.

Unfortunately the commanding officer of DesDiv17, CAPT TANII Tamotsu was KIA with the sinking of the flag ship (leading destroyer) Urakaze on 21 November 1944.
The “Order” of DesDiv17 was;
Urakaze, Hakaze, Isokaze, Yukikaze
Normally, Hamakaze, order 2, takes over Urakaze, and Comanding Offiser of Hamakaze takes command of DesDiv17 temporally. In other words, Hamakaze takes the "leading position".

Fortunately DesDiv17 War Diary is left.
https://www.jacar.archives.go.jp/aj/met ... L_TYPE=pdf
According to it, Hamakaze was in contact with Shino and senior institutions. Therefore, the placement of destroyers can be considered as the below (1).

信濃.jpg

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Jordi Comas
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Re: DD escort of CV Shinano

Post by Jordi Comas » 13 Feb 2022 10:17

Thank you guys!

According to Shinano's TROM it seems that the actual position of the ships was as follows:

Hamakaze
Yukikaze Shinano Isokaze

According to this website: "0245 SHINANO sighted what appeared to be a submarine bearing 30 degrees starboard, distance 7,000 meters. The ISOKAZE is signaled to investigate".
So, Isokaze probably was the submarine in the starboard side of Shinano............but it's only my opinion

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Re: DD escort of CV Shinano

Post by glenn239 » 13 Feb 2022 15:46

daveshoup2MD wrote:
12 Feb 2022 21:33
Nothing "lucky" about it; Shinano's loss was due to poor decisions and leadership in the IJN, and excellent leadership and performance by the USN, including Capt. Enright and the crew of Archerfish, and his superiors in the Submarine Force.
I seem to recall that Shinano suffered an mechanical failure on one of her propellor shafts that compelled her to reduce speed to just enough that Archerfish could continue the pursuit.

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Re: DD escort of CV Shinano

Post by Jordi Comas » 13 Feb 2022 18:53

Hi all!

I think option 2 is the most likely:
Ahead: DD Isokaze
Port Side: DD Yukikaze
Center: CV Shinano
Starboard side: DD Hamakaze

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Re: DD escort of CV Shinano

Post by daveshoup2MD » 13 Feb 2022 20:40

glenn239 wrote:
13 Feb 2022 15:46
daveshoup2MD wrote:
12 Feb 2022 21:33
Nothing "lucky" about it; Shinano's loss was due to poor decisions and leadership in the IJN, and excellent leadership and performance by the USN, including Capt. Enright and the crew of Archerfish, and his superiors in the Submarine Force.
I seem to recall that Shinano suffered an mechanical failure on one of her propellor shafts that compelled her to reduce speed to just enough that Archerfish could continue the pursuit.
Excellent example of poor leadership and decision0making by the IJN. Sending a ship to sea that was unfit for action, and into waters where the USN was operating with impunity, says volumes about the state of the IJN's leadership, doesn't it?

And that of the USN, of course. ;)
Last edited by daveshoup2MD on 14 Feb 2022 00:36, edited 1 time in total.

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fontessa
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Re: DD escort of CV Shinano

Post by fontessa » 14 Feb 2022 00:05

Jordi Comas wrote:
13 Feb 2022 10:17
Thank you guys!

According to Shinano's TROM it seems that the actual position of the ships was as follows:

Hamakaze
Yukikaze Shinano Isokaze

According to this website: "0245 SHINANO sighted what appeared to be a submarine bearing 30 degrees starboard, distance 7,000 meters. The ISOKAZE is signaled to investigate".
So, Isokaze probably was the submarine in the starboard side of Shinano............but it's only my opinion

Regards
I agree. it seems that (1) I showed was wrong.
According to Japanese Wiki;
信濃艦長伝令の梅田耕一水兵長(航海科信号員)の記録によれば、「11月29日午前2時45分、右30度距離7000に敵潜水艦らしきもの発見、右舷駆逐艦(磯風)と交信、3時5分に敵潜を見失う」
According to the record of /Leading Seaman Umeda Koichi (Navigation Department signal member) who was the messenger attached to Shinano's captain, "At 2:45 am on November 29, Shinano found what appeared to be a submarine at a distance of 7,000 to the right at a distance of 7,000. She contacted with starboard destroyer (Isokaze), but lose sight of the enemy submarine at 3:05. "

fontessa

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Re: DD escort of CV Shinano

Post by Jordi Comas » 14 Feb 2022 19:06

Ok, thank you very much!

So the final disposition is as follows:

Ahead: DD Hamakaze
Starboard side: DD Isokaze
Center: CV Shinano
Port side: DD Yukikaze

Regards

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fontessa
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Re: DD escort of CV Shinano

Post by fontessa » 14 Feb 2022 21:22

Jordi Comas wrote:
14 Feb 2022 19:06
Ok, thank you very much!

So the final disposition is as follows:

Ahead: DD Hamakaze
Starboard side: DD Isokaze
Center: CV Shinano
Port side: DD Yukikaze

Regards
Yes. I believe that the temporal flag shop Hamakaze should have been in the "leading position".

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Jordi Comas
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Re: DD escort of CV Shinano

Post by Jordi Comas » 17 Feb 2022 19:07

Right

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