Kawasaki Ki-45 Toryu IN The Solomons

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Re: Kawasaki Ki-45 Toryu IN The Solomons

#16

Post by ShindenKai » 13 Sep 2022, 18:07

Another image of the J2M with the side-oblique 20mm, appears the 20mm has been removed at this point.
The wreckage of an A6M5-S, notice upper rear portion of canopy
D4Y-S at Atsugi
P1Y-S at Atsugi
Attachments
J2M_20mmSideOblq.jpg
A6M5_20mmOblq.jpg
D4Y-S_20mmOblq_2views.jpg
P1Y-S_20mmOblq_3D-163.jpg

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Re: Kawasaki Ki-45 Toryu IN The Solomons

#17

Post by fontessa » 15 Sep 2022, 04:12

ShindenKai wrote:
13 Sep 2022, 18:07
Another image of the J2M with the side-oblique 20mm, appears the 20mm has been removed at this point.
Some of his J2M5a Raiden Model33 KO were supplemented with a 20mm side-oblique gun or 2 30mm cannons. The 20mm side-oblique gun was added by the order of Commander Kozono who insisted on this. The reason the side-oblique gun wasn't aligned with the axis like Suisei, Zero, and Saiun was maybe because of the internal layout that made it impossible. The 20mm cannon (Type99 No2 Mod4) was tilted 30 degrees to the left as shown in the figure in order to avoid collision of the shells with the propeller. I think the scale is about right. The cannon barrel protruding out of the plane is about the same as the main wing (same Type99 No2 Mod4 canons). Then, the Type99 No.2 Mod3 (same length 1.88cm) of the Zero skeleton model that I have uploaded before seems a little exaggerated. The side-oblique gun was also oriented 10 degrees upward. The sighting device was a simple one with a cross drawn on a transparent acrylic plate. We can't expect a target hit with this. Two such modifications were made at the Naval Air Technical Depot and two at Mitsubishi. The known aircraft numbers were ヨ D1180 and ヨ D1183. (The other two are probably ヨ D1181 and ヨ D1182). These Raiden were used on the 302 Naval Air Group but only made the aircraft heavier so the 20mm canons were removed as can be seen in your photo.

雷電33型甲 20mm斜銃付き.jpg

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Last edited by fontessa on 15 Sep 2022, 09:12, edited 2 times in total.


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Re: Kawasaki Ki-45 Toryu IN The Solomons

#18

Post by ShindenKai » 15 Sep 2022, 06:01

fontessa wrote:
15 Sep 2022, 04:12
ShindenKai wrote:
13 Sep 2022, 18:07
Another image of the J2M with the side-oblique 20mm, appears the 20mm has been removed at this point.
The sighting device was a simple one with a cross drawn on a transparent acrylic plate. We can't expect a target hit with this. Two such modifications were made at the Naval Air Technical Depot and two at Mitsubishi. The known aircraft numbers were ヨ D1180 and ヨ D1183. (The other two are probably ヨ D1181 and ヨ D1182). These Raiden were used on the 302 Naval Air Group but only made the aircraft heavier so the 20mm canons were removed as can be seen in your photo.
fontessa
I agree with the weight issue. I believe its also why it was placed under the cockpit floor, to get it as far forward as possible, because it absolutely affected the CG, its probably also why they weren't installed behind the cockpit, the CG affect would've been much worse. The Raiden is simply too short for such an arrangement. From this photo its seems the out-ward angle of the 20mm is much shallower, but still enough to clear prop arc.

-Its also possible that firing the 20mm from this position induced adverse yaw affects, pushing the tail out to the right, not a good thing when you're trying to aim.
Attachments
J2M_Ace_20mmSideOblq.jpg
J2M Ace?

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Re: Kawasaki Ki-45 Toryu IN The Solomons

#19

Post by fontessa » 15 Sep 2022, 09:01

ShindenKai wrote:
15 Sep 2022, 06:01
fontessa wrote:
15 Sep 2022, 04:12
ShindenKai wrote:
13 Sep 2022, 18:07
Another image of the J2M with the side-oblique 20mm, appears the 20mm has been removed at this point.
The sighting device was a simple one with a cross drawn on a transparent acrylic plate. We can't expect a target hit with this. Two such modifications were made at the Naval Air Technical Depot and two at Mitsubishi. The known aircraft numbers were ヨ D1180 and ヨ D1183. (The other two are probably ヨ D1181 and ヨ D1182). These Raiden were used on the 302 Naval Air Group but only made the aircraft heavier so the 20mm canons were removed as can be seen in your photo.
fontessa
I agree with the weight issue. I believe its also why it was placed under the cockpit floor, to get it as far forward as possible, because it absolutely affected the CG, its probably also why they weren't installed behind the cockpit, the CG affect would've been much worse. The Raiden is simply too short for such an arrangement. From this photo its seems the out-ward angle of the 20mm is much shallower, but still enough to clear prop arc.

-Its also possible that firing the 20mm from this position induced adverse yaw affects, pushing the tail out to the right, not a good thing when you're trying to aim.
Agreed. The placement of the side-oblique 20mm cannon is slightly shallower and slightly backed off, so it looks like this. The trajectory just barely clears the propeller. The pilot was an NCO, but I'm not sure. And the pilot of the picture you have shown was CAPT Teramura Sumio 寺村純郎 (71), the 1st platoon leader of the 1st Raiden Squadron. And there were two kill marks on the vertical stabilizer.


雷電33型甲 20mm斜銃付き 2.jpg
雷電33型甲 20mm斜銃付き 2.jpg (63.41 KiB) Viewed 950 times

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Re: Kawasaki Ki-45 Toryu IN The Solomons

#20

Post by fontessa » 16 Sep 2022, 11:25

I have some doubts about the Type99 Model2 No.4 20mm canon. Figure 1 is 2 photos of it. The tip of the barrel was slightly tapered. Figure 2 is a photo of Shidenkai. It's hard to tell, but it looks like the tip of the gun's barrel was thickened. On the other hand, as shown in Figure 3, Raiden's side-oblique gun looks like a simple stick, despite seeming to be 10 degrees upward. In Figure4, I'm not sure if the tip of Suisei oblique gun was tapered. is this. . .

20mm 機銃.jpg

20mm機銃 紫電改.jpg
20mm機銃 紫電改.jpg (34.71 KiB) Viewed 677 times

20mm機銃 雷電.jpg
20mm機銃 雷電.jpg (26.38 KiB) Viewed 677 times

20mm機銃 彗星.jpg
20mm機銃 彗星.jpg (37.57 KiB) Viewed 677 times

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Re: Kawasaki Ki-45 Toryu IN The Solomons

#21

Post by Takao » 16 Sep 2022, 12:41

In photo #2, I do not think the barrel was thickened on purpose.

Looks to be a barrel bulge due to an obstruction slowing down the cannon round as it traveled down the barrel. This resulted in a build up of gases behind the round causing the barrel to deform and swell/bulge. Not enough to actually split the barrel, but enough to bulge it before the round was expelled out of the barrel.

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Re: Kawasaki Ki-45 Toryu IN The Solomons

#22

Post by fontessa » 16 Sep 2022, 14:32

Takao wrote:
16 Sep 2022, 12:41
In photo #2, I do not think the barrel was thickened on purpose.

Looks to be a barrel bulge due to an obstruction slowing down the cannon round as it traveled down the barrel. This resulted in a build up of gases behind the round causing the barrel to deform and swell/bulge. Not enough to actually split the barrel, but enough to bulge it before the round was expelled out of the barrel.
Thanks for the comment. Sure in the 2nd and 4th Pictures, we might not find the slight taper shown in the 1st Picture, but what about the 3rd Picture's Raiden case? The thickness of the barrel looks about the same as the above example in the 1st Picture, which means we see them from the same distant place, so can also see the taper, if it existed. But I can't see the taper. Furthermore, as can be seen in Figure 4, the cannon was usually painted matt black, but in Figure 3 it appears to have a faint glow. Another thing that bothers me is that the off-angle of the 20mm cannon was narrower than the 30 degrees specified. If this was Mitsubishi's work, they would never go against the Navy's instructions.

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Re: Kawasaki Ki-45 Toryu IN The Solomons

#23

Post by ShindenKai » 18 Sep 2022, 22:48

Fontessa, are you meaning the flared muzzle?
I agree it does appear to have less flare than some of the 20mm's shown, but there's variation in the flares of the 20mm's presented as well. It doesn't help that the picture is of low quality with less than optimal lighting. If looking at just the shine on the barrel itself, it VERY faintly seems to flare towards the muzzle, at least to my eyes. Its also my understanding that it was purely a "field modification" performed by experienced groundcrews.

Similar to the field modified extra gun position of the Ki-48 shown below. (seems to be mirrored to the other side of nose as well)

Thank you Fontessa.
Attachments
Ki-48-II_ExtraGunPosition_16_Sentai_Manchuria.jpg
Ki-48 Field Mod Extra Gun Position, Manchuria
Ki-48_ExtraNose_Gun_Position_Clark_Field_feb1945_3.jpg
Ki-48 Field Mod Extra Gun Position, Clark Field

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Re: Kawasaki Ki-45 Toryu IN The Solomons

#24

Post by fontessa » 30 Sep 2022, 16:47

ShindenKai wrote:
18 Sep 2022, 22:48
Fontessa, are you meaning the flared muzzle?
I agree it does appear to have less flare than some of the 20mm's shown, but there's variation in the flares of the 20mm's presented as well. It doesn't help that the picture is of low quality with less than optimal lighting. If looking at just the shine on the barrel itself, it VERY faintly seems to flare towards the muzzle, at least to my eyes. It’s also my understanding that it was purely a "field modification" performed by experienced groundcrews.

Similar to the field modified extra gun position of the Ki-48 shown below. (seems to be mirrored to the other side of nose as well)
Thanks for the comments. Yes, I meant the flared muzzle. And I was worried that the offset of the side-oblique gun was not 30 degrees. Please don't mind the trifles I said. I was afraid that the 1st picture was fake. But it turns out that the photo was not fake.

ShindenKai wrote:
15 Sep 2022, 06:01
J2M Ace?
fontessa wrote:
15 Sep 2022, 09:01
The pilot was an NCO, but I'm not sure.
fontessa
I am not confident in identifying the person's name from a photo. Failed twice in AHF. But I think he was 飛曹長 中村佳雄 Flight Chef Sergeant Nakamura Yoshio. His carrier was the 6th Air Group → the 204th Naval Air Group (Renamed only) → the 302nd Naval Air Group → the 343rd Naval Air Group. He was a very skilled pilot and piloted Zero, Raiden, and Shiden Kai. Here the 204th Naval Air Group used A6M3 Model32. Only a few air groups used it. His officially recognized score was 9. Most of them he got with Zero Model32. The 2nd picture shows him at the 204th Naval Air Group. The Zero was Model32 which was used in only a few groups due to its unpopularity. And the 3rd picture was his photo taken at the 302nd Naval Air Group. Note the plane number ヨD158 of the vertical stabilizer behind Raiden. ヨD was the Unit Code Letter of the 302nd Naval Air Group.

His scores I could find were;
[204th Naval Air Group]
13 May 1943: F4F x 2
7 June 1943: P-39 x 1, P-39 x 1 (co-op), and F4F x 1 (uncertain)
16 June 1943: be hit and injured
Returned Japan
[302nd Naval Air Group]
3 December 1944: B-29 x 1

He left the 302nd Naval Air Group in early January 1945. So the 1st picture was taken before December 1944. According to his recollection, he tested Raiden with a side-oblique gun after October 1944. The 302nd Naval Air Group Commanding Officer CAPT Kozono Yasuna who had devised an oblique gun when he was in Rabaul, ordered Raiden and Zero to be equipped with oblique guns. Flight Chef Sergeant Nakamura Yoshio’s flight was the preparation test for this. He found a B-29, so he approached it and fired a side-oblique gun, but it missed. Because the 12.7mm bullets in the B-29's counterattack against him hit near the side-oblique gun, he thought "If I had been a little closer, the drum magazine would have exploded." In other words, the oblique gun was a Type99 No.1. From the layout of the instrument panel shown in the 1st picture and the shape of the cowl flap shown in the 4th picture, the Raiden with a side-oblique gun can be identified as the J2M1 which had integrated exhaust pipes. It was armed with pneumatically firing/loading type97 7.7mm machine guns and Type 99 No.1 20mm cannons, so could not be equipped with electric-firing/loading Type 99 No.2. I guess Nakamura’s test flights were performed for checking the basic performance with a side-oblique gun such as climb rate, speed, etc., and the checking of the operation of the side-oblique gun. As shown in the 5th picture, 20 degrees offset seems to be the minimum. The cannon was mounted with the pilot seat removed, but unlike the case of the mounting in the wing, there was no fixed foothold or angle adjustment jig, with the 20-degree offset, the trajectory might have crossed the propeller. So I assume that the offset was specified at 30 degrees with some margin. And I also think Type 99 No.2 with a belt magazine was unsuitable for such "improvement work (actual matching work)". I think his score of B-29 on 3 December 1944 was not due to the oblique gun. If so, it should have been recorded. As mentioned before, 4 J2M3s, were equipped with side-oblique guns by January of the following year at the latest. These have both pneumatic and electric firing/loading systems. The shot down of a B-29 by Raiden with a side-oblique gun was recorded on 10 February 1945 firstly. One thing I don't know is how the side-oblique gun was triggered. If it was common with the wing canons, it was supposed to shoot useless balls. This is the same for "Zero Night Fighter".

雷電 20mm斜銃付き3.jpg
雷電 20mm斜銃付き3.jpg (105.03 KiB) Viewed 502 times

204空 ブイン.jpg

雷電 中村佳雄.jpg

雷電 集合 単排気管.jpg

雷電11型 20mm斜銃付き A.jpg

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Re: Kawasaki Ki-45 Toryu IN The Solomons

#25

Post by fontessa » 30 Sep 2022, 16:49

A6M3 Bits of Knowledge
A6M3 was Zero Model32 and Model22, and Model32 was not very popular.
First, I would like to explain the model numbering system of IJNAF. The tens digit of the two-digit model number indicated the airframe design version and the one-digit indicated the engine version. So every naval plane started with Model 11. In the case of Zero, the Model 21, which was equipped with equipment for loading onto an aircraft carrier, was used in the attack on Pearl Harbor. Model 32 was the upgraded version of the fuselage and engine, and the navy and chief designer Horikoshi put a lot of effort into it. Therefore, this was called the 2号零戦 No.2 Zero Fighter. Its wingtips were cut off, and the US gave it the Hamp code. But the air groups stationed at Rabaul hated it. The reason for this was that the more powerful the engine, the more fuel it consumed, resulting in a reduction in cruising range. With this, Zero could not advance to Guadalcanal, which is 1,000 kilometers away from Rabaul. The reason for this was that Navy gave inappropriate instructions, leading to a situation in which the Director of Navy Air Administration Headquarters had no choice but to announce his intention to resign. So, in a hurry, the Model 22 returned to the original airframe design with increased fuel capacity. Therefore, the chronological order was Nodel21(A6M2)→Model32(A6M3)→Model22(A6M3), not Model21→Model22→Model32. After this, it was technically a Model 42, but the Japanese 4-2 Shi-ni was bad luck, leading to death, so the Model 42 jumped over and became the Model 52(A6M5), the most produced model in the latter part of the war. The picture shows Zero Models 21, 32, and 22. Colored areas indicate changes from the previous model. As for the 204th Naval Air Group, Zero Model32 was replaced with Zero Model22 finally.

Rabaul - Gadalcanal 1,000km Journey
Zero's cruising range of 3,000 km made operations between Rabaul - Guadalcanal possible. Fuel consumption, however, depended on flight conditions. A survived Zero pilot recalled that a one-way trip of 1,000km required flying at an altitude of 4,000m and a speed of 250km/h. It was a four-hour trip in thin, cold air, with the right hand on the control stick, the left hand on the throttle lever, and both feet on the foot pedals. Several ten minutes of aerial combat on Guadalcanal, followed by a four-hour journey to Rabaul. He says, "By repeating this, even a very skilled pilot would be exhausted. If he was exhausted, he would have made a mistake." Solomon was a pilot's graveyard. Many Zero pilots were killed in action within a few months. Fortunately, Nakamura survived for 0ne year and four months. I saw somewhere that the P-51 cruise speed was 440km/h. (Really?) If this was true, the 1,200km trip between Iwo Jima and Tokyo would have taken three hours. Would US pilots have been similarly exhausted?

零戦 21-32-22.jpg

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Re: Kawasaki Ki-45 Toryu IN The Solomons

#26

Post by Takao » 01 Oct 2022, 22:06

fontessa wrote:
30 Sep 2022, 16:49
Rabaul - Gadalcanal 1,000km Journey
Zero's cruising range of 3,000 km made operations between Rabaul - Guadalcanal possible. Fuel consumption, however, depended on flight conditions. A survived Zero pilot recalled that a one-way trip of 1,000km required flying at an altitude of 4,000m and a speed of 250km/h. It was a four-hour trip in thin, cold air, with the right hand on the control stick, the left hand on the throttle lever, and both feet on the foot pedals. Several ten minutes of aerial combat on Guadalcanal, followed by a four-hour journey to Rabaul. He says, "By repeating this, even a very skilled pilot would be exhausted. If he was exhausted, he would have made a mistake." Solomon was a pilot's graveyard. Many Zero pilots were killed in action within a few months. Fortunately, Nakamura survived for 0ne year and four months. I saw somewhere that the P-51 cruise speed was 440km/h. (Really?) If this was true, the 1,200km trip between Iwo Jima and Tokyo would have taken three hours. Would US pilots have been similarly exhausted?
Oh, yes, such very long range missions were very taxing on American fighter pilots.

P-51s, flying escort, would cruise at 200-210 mph at 10,000 feet, the pace of the bombers, to Japan. Many pilots looked forward to combat over Japan, as it broke the tedium of the long flight(helped by the adrenaline). However, once the return to Iwo began, and the adrenaline stopped flowing, the became very weary. The pilots would slightly perk back up nearing Iwo to land. Once, on the ground, many had problems simply getting out of the cockpit, and had to be helped out.

Here, however, the Americans had the advantage. While, Japanese pilots literally flew until they died. The Americans would rotate their fighter pilots out after 15 completed VLR missions - aborts did not count - which was roughly 100 hours of combat flying.

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Re: Kawasaki Ki-45 Toryu IN The Solomons

#27

Post by ShindenKai » 01 Oct 2022, 22:28

Great info Fontessa & Takao.

I hadn’t realized the early J2M’s had the 7.7mm’s protrude into the cockpit as well.

I would hope and imagine that there would be a completely separate trigger OR extra selector position added for the oblique 20mm. If the plumbing + valves were similar to the Zeros’ the pilot could shut off air/CO2 to wing-mounted 20mm’s so they wouldn’t be charged/cocked and thus couldn’t fire.

In any case, Nakamura is definitely standing on a J2M3 Model 21, the cowl-flaps are notched to clear the individual exhaust stacks, the stacks just aren’t as visible because the camera is at such an angle that it is looking directly inside the exhaust nozzles.

Thx again Fontessa & Takao for insight & info.

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Re: Kawasaki Ki-45 Toryu IN The Solomons

#28

Post by fontessa » 01 Oct 2022, 23:52

ShindenKai wrote:
01 Oct 2022, 22:28
In any case, Nakamura is definitely standing on a J2M3 Model 21, the cowl-flaps are notched to clear the individual exhaust stacks, the stacks just aren’t as visible because the camera is at such an angle that it is looking directly inside the exhaust nozzles.
Thanks for the comments. A famous Japanese WWII Airplane Magazine also says that he stood on a J2M3 Model 21 in the caption of the same photo. But please look at the below photos. The Raiden behind him was equipped with 7.7mm MGs from the layout of the instrument panel in the 1st and 2nd pictures.
The Raiden in the 3rd picture was handed over from the 831st Naval Air Group to the 302nd Naval Air Group.

雷電11型 20mm斜銃付き C.jpg
雷電11型 20mm斜銃付き C.jpg (99.36 KiB) Viewed 428 times

雷電11型 7.7mm機銃.jpg

雷電 J2M2 831航空隊.jpg
雷電 J2M2 831航空隊.jpg (44.66 KiB) Viewed 440 times

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Last edited by fontessa on 02 Oct 2022, 00:28, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Kawasaki Ki-45 Toryu IN The Solomons

#29

Post by fontessa » 02 Oct 2022, 00:03

Takao wrote:
01 Oct 2022, 22:06
fontessa wrote:
30 Sep 2022, 16:49
Rabaul - Gadalcanal 1,000km Journey
Zero's cruising range of 3,000 km made operations between Rabaul - Guadalcanal possible. Fuel consumption, however, depended on flight conditions. A survived Zero pilot recalled that a one-way trip of 1,000km required flying at an altitude of 4,000m and a speed of 250km/h. It was a four-hour trip in thin, cold air, with the right hand on the control stick, the left hand on the throttle lever, and both feet on the foot pedals. Several ten minutes of aerial combat on Guadalcanal, followed by a four-hour journey to Rabaul. He says, "By repeating this, even a very skilled pilot would be exhausted. If he was exhausted, he would have made a mistake." Solomon was a pilot's graveyard. Many Zero pilots were killed in action within a few months. Fortunately, Nakamura survived for 0ne year and four months. I saw somewhere that the P-51 cruise speed was 440km/h. (Really?) If this was true, the 1,200km trip between Iwo Jima and Tokyo would have taken three hours. Would US pilots have been similarly exhausted?
Oh, yes, such very long range missions were very taxing on American fighter pilots.

P-51s, flying escort, would cruise at 200-210 mph at 10,000 feet, the pace of the bombers, to Japan. Many pilots looked forward to combat over Japan, as it broke the tedium of the long flight(helped by the adrenaline). However, once the return to Iwo began, and the adrenaline stopped flowing, the became very weary. The pilots would slightly perk back up nearing Iwo to land. Once, on the ground, many had problems simply getting out of the cockpit, and had to be helped out.

Here, however, the Americans had the advantage. While, Japanese pilots literally flew until they died. The Americans would rotate their fighter pilots out after 15 completed VLR missions - aborts did not count - which was roughly 100 hours of combat flying.
Thanks for the comments. Do you know the flight altitude of P-51s?

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Re: Kawasaki Ki-45 Toryu IN The Solomons

#30

Post by ShindenKai » 02 Oct 2022, 00:54

fontessa wrote:
01 Oct 2022, 23:52
Thanks for the comments. A famous Japanese WWII Airplane Magazine also says that he stood on a J2M3 Model 21 in the caption of the same photo. But please look at the below photos. The Raiden behind him was equipped with 7.7mm MGs from the layout of the instrument panel in the 1st and 2nd pictures.
The Raiden in the 3rd picture was handed over from the 831st Naval Air Group to the 302nd Naval Air Group.
fotessa
I hate to disagree Fontessa. But the J2M Nakamura is standing on clearly has the notched cowl-flaps of the Model 21. Yes, the instrument panel does appear to more closely match the earlier version, but there is no 7.7mm visible in the opening.

The only the other photo we have, shown below, is a Model 21. Its possible that its one of the other 3, but the gun port panel is clearly unpainted as well. Again, its possible that none of them had painted gun port panels (possibly the panel is made of a heavier stainless steel, more able to withstand heat and concussion of the 20mm). To my eyes, the notched cowl-flaps are clear as day. An aircraft with a collector ring exhaust wouldn't use notched cowl-flaps.

Thank you again Fontessa, for all the info you bring to light.
Attachments
J2M_20mmSideOblq.jpg
J2M3 Model 21 20mmSideOblq
J2M_Ace_20mmSideOblq.jpg
Notched cowl-flap close-up
J2M_Ace_20mmSideOblq.jpg (41.54 KiB) Viewed 427 times

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