Captured Japanese Aircraft on US Carrier deck

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ShindenKai
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Captured Japanese Aircraft on US Carrier deck

#1

Post by ShindenKai » 12 Jan 2023, 17:52

Very interesting pic showing all black painted, captured Japanese aircraft on USN Escort Carrier deck.

Front & Center is a N1K1 Kyofu, off it's left wing tip is a radar equip'd Ki-67 (Not sure if Hiryu or Yasukuni) immediately behind that Ki-67 is another Ki-67 Yasukuni (torp mounts visible) immediately behind that Ki-67 is yet another Ki-67 and behind that is a Ki-109. Between the Ki-109 & Ki-67 is a E16A Zuiun on the left and an M6A1 Seiran on the right. Directly behind the Kyofu is what appears to be a D4Y3 Suisei but not certain. The only aircraft that's a total mystery is in the immediate foreground, only the tail is visible, seems it must be on tri-cycle gear because the tail is too high to be a taildragger but its also missing a tail-turret. A transport?
Attachments
N1K1_Kyofu_3xKi-67+Ki-109+M6A1 Seiran+E16A Zuiun+D4Y3 Suisei Captured_USS-Core_1945.jpg

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fontessa
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Re: Captured Japanese Aircraft on US Carrier deck

#2

Post by fontessa » 12 Jan 2023, 23:02

ShindenKai wrote:
12 Jan 2023, 17:52
The only aircraft that's a total mystery is in the immediate foreground, only the tail is visible, seems it must be on tri-cycle gear because the tail is too high to be a taildragger but its also missing a tail-turret. A transport?
Wasn't the plane high because it was a seaplane?
(1) Rear end of horizontal stabilizer and rear end of vertical stabilizer are almost at the same position
(2) pointed tail
(3) The horizontal stabilizer is at the base of the vertical stabilizer
So I think it was Jake. . .

零式水偵 A.jpg

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Re: Captured Japanese Aircraft on US Carrier deck

#3

Post by ShindenKai » 17 Jan 2023, 06:33

I do agree that it is a floatplane on a dolly. However, I believe it's another Kyofu.

The elevator seems to have a counterbalance outboard near the tip (circled) for static balancing: eliminates flutter and reduces force need to deflect the elevator. The inboard circled area appears to show a control-rod for a trim tab. The tail-cone point is also much lower, well below the trailing edge of the elevators.

**Interestingly, the A6M2-N "Rufe" has a MUCH better rudder arrangement than the Kyofu. In a flat-spin, the Kyofu's rudder would be "blanked off" by air flowing nearly vertical past the horizontal stab & elevators. Making spin recovery more difficult. This also explains why the Kyofu had such a problem with prop torque on take-off.**
N1K1_Kyofu_3xKi-67+Ki-109+M6A1 Seiran+E16A Zuiun+D4Y3 Suisei Captured_USS-Core_1945 Marked.jpg
Kyofu Static balance tab, Trim control rod, Rudder trailing edge almost straight.
3 N1K1 Kyofu on dollies + Aichi H9A Marked.jpg
Kyofu Tail-cone has low point, static balance tab visible.

The Jake tail-cone has a high-point, nearly level with elevator trailing edge. The rudder trailing edge is more rounded.
E13A in-flight, left side Marked.jpg
Jake Tail-cone has high point, rounded rudder trailing edge.
Jake 3-View drawing showing the partially statically balanced elevators (Uses air-flow + weight to balance elevator input, return to neutral, very good for cruising)
E13A 3-View Drawing Marked.jpg
Partially Statically balanced elevator.

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fontessa
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Re: Captured Japanese Aircraft on US Carrier deck

#4

Post by fontessa » 17 Jan 2023, 18:49

ShindenKai wrote:
17 Jan 2023, 06:33
I do agree that it is a floatplane on a dolly. However, I believe it's another Kyofu.

The elevator seems to have a counterbalance outboard near the tip (circled) for static balancing: eliminates flutter and reduces force need to deflect the elevator. The inboard circled area appears to show a control-rod for a trim tab. The tail-cone point is also much lower, well below the trailing edge of the elevators.

**Interestingly, the A6M2-N "Rufe" has a MUCH better rudder arrangement than the Kyofu. In a flat-spin, the Kyofu's rudder would be "blanked off" by air flowing nearly vertical past the horizontal stab & elevators. Making spin recovery more difficult. This also explains why the Kyofu had such a problem with prop torque on take-off.**

N1K1_Kyofu_3xKi-67+Ki-109+M6A1 Seiran+E16A Zuiun+D4Y3 Suisei Captured_USS-Core_1945 Marked.jpg
3 N1K1 Kyofu on dollies + Aichi H9A Marked.jpg


The Jake tail-cone has a high-point, nearly level with elevator trailing edge. The rudder trailing edge is more rounded.
E13A in-flight, left side Marked.jpg

Jake 3-View drawing showing the partially statically balanced elevators (Uses air-flow + weight to balance elevator input, return to neutral, very good for cruising)

E13A 3-View Drawing Marked.jpg
Thanks for the comments. I focused only on Fig. 1, where the trailing edge of the horizontal stabilizer and the trailing edge of the vertical stabilizer are at almost the same position. In other words, the horizontal stabilizer is lowered to the rear. I checked the positions of the horizontal stabilizers of all the seaplanes. Many of them were forward of the tail. One exception is the E15K1 "Shiun" 1st Prototyped. After the Doolittle Raids, IJAAF and IJNAF prototypes were painted yellow. Here the rudder bottom of "Shiun" is away from the horizontal stabilizer. In addition, the shape of the tail is different in the mass-produced airplanes. From the above, I thought that it might be Jake. Of course I could be wrong.

Addition
"Shiun" was planed for Light Cruiser Oyodo. Various ideas were incorporated, but ultimately ended in failure. Most importantly, the contra-rotating propeller used to counteract the large torque of the engine "Mars" normally used for bombers exceeded Japan's technological capabilities at the time. All prototypes are said to have been lost before the end of the war.


零式水偵?.jpg

零式水偵.jpg

零式水偵 2.jpg

零式水偵 水上機 1.jpg

零式水偵 水上機 2.jpg
零式水偵 水上機 2.jpg (74.62 KiB) Viewed 1875 times

fontessa

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Re: Captured Japanese Aircraft on US Carrier deck

#5

Post by ShindenKai » 17 Jan 2023, 23:18

I looked at those same aircraft. I also thought the Jake was the answer. However, the only aircraft it could be is a Kyofu. The rudder, static balance tab/weight on the elevators and tail cone match the Kyofu.

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Re: Captured Japanese Aircraft on US Carrier deck

#6

Post by fontessa » 01 Feb 2023, 21:33

ShindenKai wrote:
17 Jan 2023, 23:18
I looked at those same aircraft. I also thought the Jake was the answer. However, the only aircraft it could be is a Kyofu. The rudder, static balance tab/weight on the elevators and tail cone match the Kyofu.
I found a colorized photo of the photo you uploaded. The plane on the left is most likely Jake, but with the problem you pointed out. I'm not sure about the plane on the right either. Most likely Rufe, but the horizontal stabilizer protrudes in front of the leading edge of the vertical stabilizer. Just like the Nakajima fighters. Of course, I know it's not them. Does it look that way because of the viewing position? What do you think?

零式水偵 強風.jpg
零式水偵 強風.jpg (81.96 KiB) Viewed 1695 times

強風.jpg

零式水偵 2式水戦.jpg
零式水偵 2式水戦.jpg (38.26 KiB) Viewed 1695 times

零式水偵 中島戦闘機.jpg
零式水偵 中島戦闘機.jpg (70.58 KiB) Viewed 1695 times

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Re: Captured Japanese Aircraft on US Carrier deck

#7

Post by ShindenKai » 04 Feb 2023, 11:37

fontessa wrote:
01 Feb 2023, 21:33
ShindenKai wrote:
17 Jan 2023, 23:18
I looked at those same aircraft. I also thought the Jake was the answer. However, the only aircraft it could be is a Kyofu. The rudder, static balance tab/weight on the elevators and tail cone match the Kyofu.
I found a colorized photo of the photo you uploaded. The plane on the left is most likely Jake, but with the problem you pointed out. I'm not sure about the plane on the right either. Most likely Rufe, but the horizontal stabilizer protrudes in front of the leading edge of the vertical stabilizer. Just like the Nakajima fighters. Of course, I know it's not them. Does it look that way because of the viewing position? What do you think?
Firstly, I appreciate the way you highlighted the images. Thank you, Fontessa.

But as can be seen with the following pic, which is the same group of aircraft, except the pic has been taken from the front: 3 Kyofu's and 1 Aichi H9A (it has the very large tail section and twin-engine, high-wing) it looks very much like a scaled down version of the Kawanishi H6K Mavis. Apparently, the Allies were completely unaware of its existence until after the war. Though I do think the Yokosuka H5Y Cherry looks more like a scaled down H6K Mavis...
I think the H9A is cooler however, because it was actually amphibious (its possible that it just has retractable beaching gear, still better than gear that must floated out to the aircraft to bring it onto land), none of the other flying-boats were.
Attachments
3 N1K1 Kyofu + Aichi H9A front.jpg
Kyofu + H9A
Yokosuka H5Y Cherry + H6K Mavis.jpg
H5Y Cherry + H6K Mavis
Aichi H9A engines running, floating.jpg
Aichi H9A, taxiing
Aichi H9A with US crew.jpg
H9A maintenance, US crew
Aichi H9A with US crew.jpg (30.27 KiB) Viewed 1575 times
Aichi H9A being worked on by US crew.jpg
H9A maintenance, US crew

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Re: Captured Japanese Aircraft on US Carrier deck

#8

Post by fontessa » 08 Feb 2023, 14:57

I think the right side tail was that of J5N1 Tenrai 天雷.
It was ordered to be prototyped in 1943 as a single-seat, twin-engine fighter. The front edge of the horizontal stabilizer was in front of the vertical stabilizer, matching the photo conditions. Six prototypes were built, but the speed performance did not meet the requirements. IJNAF had more prototype projects than Japan could produce, so the single-seat twin-engine Tenrai was dropped from the production priority list. However, prototype No. 6 was remodeled into a two-seat type with a view to turning it into a night fighter. Tenrai's armament was:
Single-seat type: 20mm cannon x 2 and 30mm cannon x 2 on the nose
Double-seat type: 30mm oblique cannon x 2 on the back
After the war, prototype No. 3 (single-seat type) and prototype No. 6 (double-seat type) were filmed in Yokosuka. Note that it is clearly shown that the horizontal stabilizer was in front of the vertical stabilizer in the bottom picture. I believe either or both of these have been transported to the United States by an aircraft carrier.

天雷 空母.jpg

天雷.jpg

天雷 横須賀 B.jpg


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Re: Captured Japanese Aircraft on US Carrier deck

#9

Post by ShindenKai » 09 Feb 2023, 04:50

Im sorry Fontessa, but the tail of the aircraft on the right can only be an Aichi H9A, the horizontal stabilizer actually protrudes in front of the leading edge of the vertical stabilizer and its mounted essentially above the fuselage, in the vertical stabilizer. Which does not match the J5N at all. Though the J5N Tenrai is an interesting aircraft, it's not there.

Below are both pics of the same group of aircraft, the H9A can be seen behind the Kyofu on the left. There are no other aircraft visible.

Notes:
-The Kyofu in the middle has the boarding ladder attached (on the right side of the fuselage) and is missing the propeller, clearly evident in both pics.

-The central float is visible on all 3 Kyofu's, in both pics.

-There's a group of US G.I.'s standing in the middle of the four aircraft, clearly visible in both pics, again.


**Just to be clear: the "unknown" aircraft on the carrier deck is a Kyofu, as previously stated. The "unknown" aircraft in the hanger is an H9A.

Frankly, transporting a Jake to the USA, wouldn't make any sense, it was an old design that was well known. Transporting 2+ Kyofu's makes perfect sense because extra airframes were used for parts.**
Attachments
3 N1K1 Kyofu on dollies + Aichi H9A.jpg
3 Kyofu + H9A
3 N1K1 Kyofu + Aichi H9A front.jpg
3 Kyofu + H9A

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Re: Captured Japanese Aircraft on US Carrier deck

#10

Post by fontessa » 10 Feb 2023, 07:36

ShindenKai wrote:
09 Feb 2023, 04:50
but the tail of the aircraft on the right can only be an Aichi H9A,
Sorry. I wonder about the basis for your above judgment. Firstly, the width of the rudder and the ratio to the vertical tail span are clearly different as shown in the picture below. And, in the H9A, the horizontal stabilizer is in the middle of the vertical stabilizer, but the position on the right side of the plane is at the bottom of the vertical stabilizer. So I can't believe they are the same.

2式練習飛行艇.jpg

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Re: Captured Japanese Aircraft on US Carrier deck

#11

Post by ShindenKai » 10 Feb 2023, 09:58

As can be seen clearly in the 3-view drawing below, the bottom section of the rudder is narrower than the section above the horizontal stabilizer/elevator. It's also clearly visible zoomed in.

I have marked the actual edges of the rudder more accurately. The drawing and pic match. No Jake in any of the pics either.

It's the same group of aircraft.
Attachments
3 N1K1 Kyofu + Aichi H9A front, marked, zoomed, crop'd.jpg
3 N1K1 Kyofu on dollies + Aichi H9A Mark'd, Zoom'd, Crop'd.jpg
3 N1K1 Kyofu on dollies + Aichi H9A Mark'd, Zoom'd, Crop'd.jpg (41.12 KiB) Viewed 1386 times
Aichi H9A 3 view drawing.jpg

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Re: Captured Japanese Aircraft on US Carrier deck

#12

Post by ShindenKai » 17 Feb 2023, 23:01

Noticed a couple of other photos that are related to each other... very interesting that the E7K is carrying an MXY-3 drone and behind the E7K is what appears to be a prototype F1M "Pete" it has the very early (and ugly) style blistered cowling!
:thumbsup:
Attachments
H5Y + H6K marked.jpg
E7K with MXY-3 drone + F1M Prototype.jpg

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Re: Captured Japanese Aircraft on US Carrier deck

#13

Post by ShindenKai » 18 Feb 2023, 09:36

Some more pics of the early type E7K with the MXY-3 drone and a pic of a later version (air-cooled radial) E7K that has just released the later MXY-4.
Attachments
E7K MXY3 front left.jpg
E7K MXY3 front left.jpg (50.86 KiB) Viewed 1226 times
E7K MXY3 + MXY4.jpg
E7K MXY3 + MXY4.jpg (42.81 KiB) Viewed 1226 times

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Re: Captured Japanese Aircraft on US Carrier deck

#14

Post by fontessa » 19 Feb 2023, 10:50

Hello Shidenkai.

May I ask some questions for confirmation?
You say 1st photo group shows the same 3 Kyfou and one H9A. Where do you think the upper photo of the 1st photo group was taken? In Japan or US? The lower photo seems to have been taken in Japan. I agree that the left airplane of the upper photo of the 1st photo group was Kyofu, not Jake.
The next question is;
Is there any relation between the H9A shown in the 2nd photo group and that shown in the 1st photo group?

Thanks,

強風+2式練習飛行艇.jpg
強風+2式練習飛行艇.jpg (42.32 KiB) Viewed 1194 times

2式練習飛行艇 米兵.jpg
2式練習飛行艇 米兵.jpg (31.6 KiB) Viewed 1194 times

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Re: Captured Japanese Aircraft on US Carrier deck

#15

Post by ShindenKai » 19 Feb 2023, 11:10

Looks to me like both of the pics showing the 3 Kyofu + H9A are taken in the same hangar in Japan. It would have to be, for it to be the same group of aircraft.

As for the two pics of the H9A being serviced by US crew, I have no idea if that's the same H9A shown with the 3 Kyofu's or not. But those two pics were also most likely taken at the same time as well. They do seem to be enjoying the fold-out maintenance platform feature of the leading-edge, a clever design/good engineering (also used on H6K & H8K).

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