IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

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LAstryAGAIN
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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by LAstryAGAIN » 14 Aug 2023 03:47

thanks for the links
of :milwink: :thumbsup: Interest
5 torpedo planes lost 1st wave from Kaga https://japanese-aviation.forumotion.co ... do-bombers
Soryu and Hiryu bombers https://japanese-aviation.forumotion.co ... do-bombers
Akagi bombers https://japanese-aviation.forumotion.co ... el-bombers
Kaga Bombers https://japanese-aviation.forumotion.co ... el-bombers
Soryu bombers https://japanese-aviation.forumotion.co ... el-bombers
Hiryu bombers https://japanese-aviation.forumotion.co ... el-bombers
1 SHokaku dive bomber lost https://japanese-aviation.forumotion.co ... ve-bombers
zuikaku-s-dive-bombers https://japanese-aviation.forumotion.co ... ve-bombers
1 Akagi Fighter lost https://japanese-aviation.forumotion.co ... s-fighters
4 Kaga Fighters lost https://japanese-aviation.forumotion.co ... s-fighters [2 accounted for]
3 Soryu Fighter lost https://japanese-aviation.forumotion.co ... s-fighters [1 crashed after being damaged [Fusata Iida];the other two were apparently shot down by Harry Brown and Malcolm Moore apeice {Pilots Shunichi Atsumai and Saburo Ishii]
1 Hiryu Fighter https://japanese-aviation.forumotion.co ... s-fighters
Zuikiku fighters https://japanese-aviation.forumotion.co ... s-fighters
Shikaku fighters https://japanese-aviation.forumotion.co ... s-fighters
2 Soryu dive bombers lost https://japanese-aviation.forumotion.co ... ve-bombers
2 Hiryu dive bombers lost https://japanese-aviation.forumotion.co ... ve-bombers
4 Akagi Dive bombers lost https://japanese-aviation.forumotion.co ... ve-bombers {1 shot down by Ken Taylor]
6 Kaga Dive bombers lost https://japanese-aviation.forumotion.co ... ve-bombers {1 shot down by Ken taylor; 1 shot down by George Welch; 1 shot down near USS Nevada (recovered)
Shokaku bombers https://japanese-aviation.forumotion.co ... el-bombers
Zuikaku bombers https://japanese-aviation.forumotion.co ... el-bombers

of 29 shot down aircraft at least estimated 21 can be indentifed/both crew/fate
Last edited by LAstryAGAIN on 14 Aug 2023 16:00, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by LAstryAGAIN » 14 Aug 2023 07:09

Last edited by LAstryAGAIN on 14 Aug 2023 15:48, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by LAstryAGAIN » 14 Aug 2023 14:55

IJN Planes losses Phillippines and Wake Island
https://japanese-aviation.forumotion.co ... ember-1941

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fontessa
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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by fontessa » 14 Aug 2023 18:25

LAstryAGAIN wrote:
14 Aug 2023 03:47
5 torpedo planes lost 1st wave from Kaga https://japanese-aviation.forumotion.co ... do-bombers
Thanks.

But the below is sure?
(1) It was the 1st Plane of the 45th Battalion which was the position for Buntaicho.
(2) Tail Numbers 31x or 35x seems to be allocated to Kaga Torpedo Kate.
真珠湾 加賀雷撃隊1.jpg

Instead, I have got the below.
It wore a vertical tail double-stripe marking a Butaicho.
真珠湾 加賀雷撃隊2.jpg

97式艦攻 雷撃隊形 C.jpg

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fontessa
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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by fontessa » 15 Aug 2023 12:04

LAstryAGAIN wrote:
14 Aug 2023 03:47
Soryu and Hiryu bombers https://japanese-aviation.forumotion.co ... do-bombers
Thanks.

I got the complete Hiryu Torpedo Bombing formation from various sources including the above.

97式艦攻 雷撃隊形 D 飛龍.jpg

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by LAstryAGAIN » 15 Aug 2023 15:59

LAstryAGAIN wrote:
14 Aug 2023 03:47
thanks for the links
of :milwink: :thumbsup: Interest
5 torpedo planes lost 1st wave from Kaga https://japanese-aviation.forumotion.co ... do-bombers
Soryu and Hiryu bombers https://japanese-aviation.forumotion.co ... do-bombers
Akagi bombers https://japanese-aviation.forumotion.co ... el-bombers
Kaga Bombers https://japanese-aviation.forumotion.co ... el-bombers
Soryu bombers https://japanese-aviation.forumotion.co ... el-bombers
Hiryu bombers https://japanese-aviation.forumotion.co ... el-bombers
1 SHokaku dive bomber lost https://japanese-aviation.forumotion.co ... ve-bombers
zuikaku-s-dive-bombers https://japanese-aviation.forumotion.co ... ve-bombers
1 Akagi Fighter lost https://japanese-aviation.forumotion.co ... s-fighters
4 Kaga Fighters lost https://japanese-aviation.forumotion.co ... s-fighters [2 accounted for]
3 Soryu Fighter lost https://japanese-aviation.forumotion.co ... s-fighters [1 crashed after being damaged [Fusata Iida];the other two were apparently shot down by Harry Brown and Malcolm Moore apeice {Pilots Shunichi Atsumai and Saburo Ishii]
1 Hiryu Fighter https://japanese-aviation.forumotion.co ... s-fighters
Zuikiku fighters https://japanese-aviation.forumotion.co ... s-fighters
Shikaku fighters https://japanese-aviation.forumotion.co ... s-fighters
2 Soryu dive bombers lost https://japanese-aviation.forumotion.co ... ve-bombers
2 Hiryu dive bombers lost https://japanese-aviation.forumotion.co ... ve-bombers
4 Akagi Dive bombers lost https://japanese-aviation.forumotion.co ... ve-bombers {1 shot down by Ken Taylor]
6 Kaga Dive bombers lost https://japanese-aviation.forumotion.co ... ve-bombers {1 shot down by Ken taylor; 1 shot down by George Welch; 1 shot down near USS Nevada (recovered)
Shokaku bombers https://japanese-aviation.forumotion.co ... el-bombers
Zuikaku bombers https://japanese-aviation.forumotion.co ... el-bombers

of 29 shot down aircraft at least estimated 21 can be indentifed/both crew/fate
Of the remaing 8 aircraft
Known by ship but crews unknown
Akagi lost 4 dive bombers (1 plane [Goto crew] Shot down by Ken Taylor
The remaining three crew names are known....of which 2 shot down which are only known by ship (apparently not known which particular crew was lost)
1 Akagi Dive bomber was damaged and crashed into USS Curtis
1 AKagi dive bomber {Which was photographed with 1 wing afire (David Aiken called this one of the last planes to fall) Aiea area into a sugar cane field see https://pacificwrecks.com/aircraft/d3a1/3133.html has seriel number but not plane number {Note not to be confused with Hiryu BII-214 which crashed into a nut grove nearby)
1 Soryu dive Bomber [id only as TakASHIge Egusa wingman shot down at Pearl harbor Naval base] (David Aiken)

This leaves
1 Akagi Dive bomber
2 Kaga Zeros
3 Kaga Dive bombers

a zero shot down over Oahu not otherwise identifed https://pacificwrecks.com/aircraft/a6m2 ... arbor.html
Possibly shot down in 2d wave{?] since time stopped at 8:30 {Japanese time(?)

of the 4 dive bombers at least 1 can be tentively identied as being a VAL having crashed On Becokoning Point on the Waipo Peninsula West LOch {Possibly a plane that was shot down by destroyer USS Zane[?)
Plus 2 possibles:
Besides the Val [Goto} shot down near Barbers Point -possibly another Val was shot down in this area
Reporably a Val was shot down off KAENA POINT at the northwest tip of OAHU.*
ref:https://j-aircraft.com/research/jimlans ... ash_4.html
*Possibly Shot down by Harry Brown (& Bob Rogers(?) plane reportable had a yellow or orange band on vertical stablizer[?}

This leaves apparently 20 identied by ship and crew
Al least apparently 3 identied by ship but not crew
With apparently 4 identied by plane type but not by ship or crew

Total accounted for is 20+7 possibles

Leaving
1 dive bomber
1 figther

Before I forget I have a note that according to DAVid Aiken that a picture of artifacts recovered from a VAl Number AII-251 (Sorry nothing else in regard to either ship or crew)
Last edited by LAstryAGAIN on 15 Aug 2023 23:49, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by LAstryAGAIN » 15 Aug 2023 23:32

research article on Kate/Torpedo shot down Hosipital area https://j-aircraft.com/research/gregspr ... ifacts.htm

IJN Pilot account https://j-aircraft.com/research/jimlans ... rward.html

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by Eugen Pinak » 16 Aug 2023 11:13

LAstryAGAIN wrote:
10 Aug 2023 16:17
29 planes lost
30 planes lost officially.

1 B5N2 had to ditch.

The trick is: according to "Senshi Sosho" this plane belonged to a group, which operated against airfields - that is, CARDIV-5.
But there is first-hand account of B5N2 pilot PO Juzo Mori from "Soryu" of CARDIV-2, that his plane was damaged and ditched after attack.
Is there an error in "Senshi Sosho" or there were two planes, that ditched after attack - I don't know.

There are hearsay stories of other losses as well.

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fontessa
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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by fontessa » 17 Aug 2023 00:20

Eugen Pinak wrote:
16 Aug 2023 11:13
LAstryAGAIN wrote:
10 Aug 2023 16:17
29 planes lost
30 planes lost officially.

1 B5N2 had to ditch.

The trick is: according to "Senshi Sosho" this plane belonged to a group, which operated against airfields - that is, CARDIV-5.
But there is first-hand account of B5N2 pilot PO Juzo Mori from "Soryu" of CARDIV-2, that his plane was damaged and ditched after attack.
Is there an error in "Senshi Sosho" or there were two planes, that ditched after attack - I don't know.

There are hearsay stories of other losses as well.
It was Soryu Torpedo Bombing B5N2.

The 1st picture is the loss summary. I uploaded it on the previous day. It says that a torpedo bombing B5N2 crashed.
The 2nd and 3rd picture is the Action Report of Soryu Torpedo Bombing B5N2s. According to them, the 2nd Plane/ 1st BTN / 1st SQN crashed and lost. All crew was rescued maybe by a destroyer sailing behind Soryu for "とんぼ釣り dragonfly fishing". So this Kate was lost by an accident, not by combat. Some would argue that it was the same as the discard of not repairable planes. Whether or not this was included in the “loss” depends on the difference in thinking.
The 4th picture shows the Sroyu Torpedo Bombing Kate formation. Unfortunately, only a few plane numbers are known.

真珠湾 損失.jpg

真珠湾 損失 蒼龍雷撃隊1.jpg

真珠湾 損失 蒼龍雷撃隊2.jpg

97式艦攻 雷撃隊形 E 蒼龍.jpg

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by Eugen Pinak » 17 Aug 2023 07:11

fontessa wrote:
17 Aug 2023 00:20
Eugen Pinak wrote:
16 Aug 2023 11:13
LAstryAGAIN wrote:
10 Aug 2023 16:17
29 planes lost
30 planes lost officially.

1 B5N2 had to ditch.

The trick is: according to "Senshi Sosho" this plane belonged to a group, which operated against airfields - that is, CARDIV-5.
But there is first-hand account of B5N2 pilot PO Juzo Mori from "Soryu" of CARDIV-2, that his plane was damaged and ditched after attack.
Is there an error in "Senshi Sosho" or there were two planes, that ditched after attack - I don't know.

There are hearsay stories of other losses as well.
It was Soryu Torpedo Bombing B5N2.

...
Fontessa - once again thank you very much for the details!

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by Eugen Pinak » 17 Aug 2023 07:42

fontessa wrote:
17 Aug 2023 00:20
According to them, the 2nd Plane/ 1st BTN / 1st SQN crashed and lost. All crew was rescued maybe by a destroyer sailing behind Soryu for "とんぼ釣り dragonfly fishing". So this Kate was lost by an accident, not by combat. Some would argue that it was the same as the discard of not repairable planes. Whether or not this was included in the “loss” depends on the difference in thinking.
Fortunately, the pilot of this B5N survived the war and wrote the memoirs, which was even translated unto English:
Mori, Jūzõ - "The Miraculous Torpedo Squadron" (2015).
He says the plane was unable to land due to battle damage (one wheel was shot off by AA fire).

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fontessa
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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by fontessa » 18 Aug 2023 00:10

I am interested in the IJNAF formations in Pearl Harbor.
I got that of Akagi torpedo bombing Kate formation. I think they turned right after the release of torpedoes. So they didn't receive anti-aircraft fire and suffered no loss.

How to target in a torpedo attack
In a torpedo attack, the pilot used the Type97 Torpedoing Sight to obtain the anticipation angle and timing of the torpedo launch. At his direction, the crew in the second seat launched a torpedo. Type97 Torpedoing Sight was a less complicated device as shown in the 2nd picture. Type97 Torpedoing Sight Kai-1 for Betty and Ginga didn't seem to be a very complicated device either.

97式艦攻 雷撃隊形 F 赤城.jpg

97式雷撃照準器.jpg

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by LAstryAGAIN » 18 Aug 2023 03:35

reportably of Akagi 23 Shotai
AI-225 plane 1 Siichi Ota; Toshio Oyama crashed into USS Curtis

2 wingman also shot down
Plane 2 Kinsuke Homma; Hirokichi Kinoshita
Plane 3 Chuji Shimakura; Kiyoshi Sakamoto

1 was Val that crashed Beconking Point
1 was Val that crashed Aiea Point Cane field

Kaga loses:
Kaga Val crashed Middle Loch off USS Montgomery
FPO 3/c Noboru Sakaguchi (killed resisting capture)
FPO 3/C Naga-aki Asahi {Drowned}


Kaga Val-crashed Waipo Pennusula
Possibly
FPO 3/c Shigenori Onikira
FPO 1/C Kazuyoshi Kuwabata

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by LAstryAGAIN » 19 Aug 2023 14:39

Update on Val Crash site at Wheeler field
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=62455

According to David Aiken after Welch and Taylor each shot down a Val at Wheeler airfield a 3rd Kaga Val was shot down by Ground fire

This leaves just 1 kaga[?] Zero--shot down by Phil Rasmussen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Rasm ... 0the%20war.

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by fontessa » 20 Aug 2023 14:57

LAstryAGAIN wrote:
15 Aug 2023 15:59
2 Soryu dive bombers lost https://japanese-aviation.forumotion.co ... ve-bombers
Thanks. I noticed some incorrections. The pilot names should be exchanged as shown in the 1st chart.
The 2nd chart shows the 1st Wave Shokaku Dive Bombing Val formation.

97 99艦爆 急降下撃隊形 瑞鶴第1波 階級.jpg

97 99艦爆 急降下撃隊形 翔鶴第1波.jpg

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