IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

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fontessa
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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by fontessa » 01 Feb 2024 15:24

Eugen Pinak wrote:
01 Feb 2024 11:40
fontessa wrote:
01 Feb 2024 10:12
glenn239 wrote:
31 Jan 2024 18:30
Thanks, but do you have any idea why Itaya does not appear in the Akagi fighter roster in Shattered Sword?
Unfortunately, I didn't have a chance to read Shattered Sword. Does pg 506 have a list of the Akagi fighter squadron? If so, I want to know that.

fontessa
Yes, pg 506 have a list of the Akagi fighter squadron.

You can see it below:
Akagi Fighter Pilot Roster (18)
Rank - Name - Class - Status after the battle
PO1c Tanaka Katsumi kō1 OK
PO2c Ōhara Hiroshi sōren50 OK
Sea1c Sano Shinpei sōren49 KIA
WO Ono Zenji otsu2 OK
PO1c Taniguchi Masao sōren51 OK
PO3c Takasuga Mitsuyoshi sōren51 OK
Lt. Ibusuki Masanobu sōren32 OK
PO1c Iwashiro Yoshio kō2 OK
PO3c Hanyu Toichirō sōren51 KIA
Lt. Shirane Ayao sōren31 OK
PO1c Kikuchi Tetsuo sōren39 OK
PO1c Kimura Koreo kō1 OK
PO1c Ōmori Shigetaka sōren33 OK
PO2c Ishii Seiji sōren50 OK
Sea1c Ishida Masashi sōren55 OK
PO1c Iwama Shinaji kō2 KIA
PO3c Mori Sakae sōren50 OK
PO2c Kawada Yozo kō4 OK

Itaya is not present.
Thanks.
Akagi Fighter Pilot Roster (18)

PO1c Tanaka Katsumi kō1 OK
PO2c Ōhara Hiroshi sōren50 OK
Sea1c Sano Shinpei sōren49 KIA
WO Ono Zenji otsu2 OK
PO1c Taniguchi Masao sōren51 OK
PO3c Takasuga Mitsuyoshi sōren51 OK
Lt. Ibusuki Masanobu sōren32 OK 指宿正信
PO1c Iwashiro Yoshio kō2 OK
PO3c Hanyu Toichirō sōren51 KIA

Lt. Shirane Ayao sōren31 OK 白根斐夫
PO1c Kikuchi Tetsuo sōren39 OK 菊地哲生
PO1c Kimura Koreo kō1 OK 木村惟雄
PO1c Ōmori Shigetaka sōren33 OK 大森茂高
PO2c Ishii Iishi Seiji sōren50 OK 井石清次
Sea1c Ishida Masashi sōren55 OK 石田正志
PO1c Iwama Shinaji kō2 KIA 岩間品次
PO3c Mori Sakae sōren50 OK 森栄
PO2c Kawada Yozo kō4 OK 川田要三

I thought Itaya was in command of the escort for the second wave attack, but I was wrong. The bottom half of the Pilot Roster of Shattered Sword is the nine pilots who escorted the first wave attack. I corrected the Kanji's reading for 井石. Therefore, the top half consisted of the nine pilots who were originally planned to escort the second wave attack. The company commander was LT 指宿正信 Ibusuki Masanobu. Note that the above is the Pilot Roster.

According to IJN News Department cameraman 牧島貞一 Makishima Teiichi's recollection of "炎の海 Sea of Flame'', Itaya was in command of CAP. Of course, the IJN was not capable of organized interception like the US Navy, so it is doubtful whether his command extended to Zeros of other carriers. Therefore, he is naturally not included in the Pilot Roster. Normally, his posit Hikocho was a "flying" position, so I'm not sure how this happened. However, the fact that he was on board Akagi and was in command of CAP can be confirmed in the Akagi 飛行機隊戦闘行動調書 Action Report below.

板谷.jpg

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by glenn239 » 01 Feb 2024 18:52

fontessa wrote:
01 Feb 2024 15:24
According to IJN News Department cameraman 牧島貞一 Makishima Teiichi's recollection of "炎の海 Sea of Flame'', Itaya was in command of CAP. Of course, the IJN was not capable of organized interception like the US Navy, so it is doubtful whether his command extended to Zeros of other carriers.
My understanding is that Shigeru flew CAP missions that morning and engaged VT-8?

Here are the 18 Akagi fighter pilots on the roster just printed, and their availability as of 1025 that morning. Those marked in red were not available for the escort mission for the reasons listed. Only those in blue are the possible escorts as of 1025.


Itaya Shigeru (commander of CAP, not available for escort)
PO1c Tanaka Katsumi kō1 (recovered only at 1010)
PO2c Ōhara Hiroshi sōren50 (recovered only 1010)
Sea1c Sano Shinpei sōren49 KIA
WO Ono Zenji otsu2 OK (aloft)
PO1c Taniguchi Masao sōren51 (aloft)

PO3c Takasuga Mitsuyoshi sōren51 OK (recovered 0951)
Lt. Ibusuki Masanobu sōren32 (aloft) 指宿正信
PO1c Iwashiro Yoshio kō2 (recovered only at 1010)
PO3c Hanyu Toichirō sōren51 KIA


Lt. Shirane Ayao sōren31 (aloft)
PO1c Kikuchi Tetsuo sōren39 (aloft)

PO1c Kimura Koreo kō1 (landed 0951)
PO1c Ōmori Shigetaka sōren33 (aloft)
PO2c Ishii Iishi Seiji sōren50 (aloft)
Sea1c Ishida Masashi sōren55 (aloft)
PO1c Iwama Shinaji kō2 KIA 

PO3c Mori Sakae sōren50 (landed around 0900)
PO2c Kawada Yozo kō4 (landed around 0900)

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by fontessa » 03 Feb 2024 02:31

glenn239 wrote:
01 Feb 2024 18:52
My understanding is that Shigeru flew CAP missions that morning and engaged VT-8?
I thought it was clear from the 飛行機隊行動調書 below that Itaya was not flying, but commanded from Akagi. . .
Or did I misunderstand your question?
板谷.jpg

glenn239 wrote:
01 Feb 2024 18:52
Here are the 18 Akagi fighter pilots on the roster just printed, and their availability as of 1025 that morning. Those marked in red were not available for the escort mission for the reasons listed. Only those in blue are the possible escorts as of 1025.
Sorry, what was "escorts as of 1025"?

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by glenn239 » 04 Feb 2024 15:19

fontessa wrote:
03 Feb 2024 02:31
I thought it was clear from the 飛行機隊行動調書 below that Itaya was not flying, but commanded from Akagi. . .
Or did I misunderstand your question?
I've seen references online that Itaya did fly at Midway. For example, here - you are saying that this information is wrong?

https://ww2in172.com/?p=2840

...according to Peter Smith in Mitsubishi Zero, Itaya once again was in charge of all the Zero fighters at Midway and, in particular, led the attack on the 15 ill-fated TBD Devastators from the USS Hornet, killing 29 men (only Ensign George Gay survived). Once the Akagi was sunk, its pilots ditched their planes near other Japanese warships and Itaya and others pilots were rescued by the escorting ships.

Another question. Here,

https://j-aircraft.com/faq/navy_aces.ht ... ru%20Itaya

It says,

Re: Lieutenant Commander Shigeru Itaya

Posted By: Wayne Little <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Re: Lieutenant Commander Shigeru Itaya>
Date: Monday, 30 April 2001, at 3:41 a.m.

In Response To: Re: Lieutenant Commander Shigeru Itaya (Doclot Kristof)

Hello Kristof, the aircraft depicted in the tamiya kit as AI-101 did participate in the Pearl Harbour attack but was not flown by Shigeru Itaya and it did not carry the yellow stripes. AI-101 was flown by Naval Air Pilot 1st class (NAP1/C) Tadao Kimura.Tadao Kimura was the wingman of Lieutenant Saburo Shindo he was the Leader of the second wave of Zeroes his aircraft was AI-102 and carried yellow stripes, a broad stripe above the code and a narrow stripe below the code. The bottom stripe was approximately half of the thickness of the top code


The name "Tadao Kimura" appears here as the leader of Akagi's second wave Zeroes. This name also appears in Shattered Sword, making a sorting around 0930 and landing at 0951. I'd assumed to that Tadao Kimura is Kimura Koreo. Did Kimura Koreo lead the second wave Akagi fighters, or was the leader of the second wave at Pearl Harbor Saburo Shindo and the sentence is just worded confusingly?

Sorry, what was "escorts as of 1025"?
I don't understand your question. It is common knowledge that the Akagi was hit around 1025 while, whether aircraft were on deck or not, the preparations for the attack on the American fleet were well advanced. There is no question but that Akagi will have allocated three fighter pilots to this strike as of 1025. The three pilots are not the ones I listed in red, they must have been the ones in blue. Which three?

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by fontessa » 04 Feb 2024 19:06

glenn239 wrote:
04 Feb 2024 15:19
fontessa wrote:
03 Feb 2024 02:31
I thought it was clear from the 飛行機隊行動調書 below that Itaya was not flying, but commanded from Akagi. . .
Or did I misunderstand your question?
I've seen references online that Itaya did fly at Midway. For example, here - you are saying that this information is wrong?
Yes, it is wrong. What is the source of the references online you have seen? Can you show it? I showed my source Akagi 飛行機隊戦闘行動調書 below. This is the third time I have shown this. I carefully explained in #196 that Itaya didn't fly. If you don't understand it, is it because my English was bad? Or are you saying again that Akagi 飛行機隊戦闘行動調書 was lost with the sinking of Akagi and then mistakenly restored?

板谷.jpg


glenn239 wrote:
04 Feb 2024 15:19
https://ww2in172.com/?p=2840

...according to Peter Smith in Mitsubishi Zero, Itaya once again was in charge of all the Zero fighters at Midway and, in particular, led the attack on the 15 ill-fated TBD Devastators from the USS Hornet, killing 29 men (only Ensign George Gay survived).
Do you think the above statement says Itaya flew? In the first wave attack? When the 15 Devastators were shot down? Weren't they shot down by CAP Zeros when they torpedo-attacked IJN's carriers? And according to Akagi 飛行機隊戦闘行動調書, Itaya commanded CAP Zeros board on Akagi. Well-known fact was that CAP flight was a job for young pilots, not for senior officers like Hikocho LCDR Iwaya. I think what I say makes sense without any contradictions…


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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by fontessa » 05 Feb 2024 00:58

glenn239 wrote:
04 Feb 2024 15:19
The name "Tadao Kimura" appears here as the leader of Akagi's second wave Zeroes. This name also appears in Shattered Sword, making a sorting around 0930 and landing at 0951. I'd assumed to that Tadao Kimura is Kimura Koreo. Did Kimura Koreo lead the second wave Akagi fighters, or was the leader of the second wave at Pearl Harbor Saburo Shindo and the sentence is just worded confusingly?
His name was Kimura Koreo. He was the second wingman of LT Shindo Saburo at Pearl Harbor. LT Shindo commanded Zero escorts in the second wave attack at Pearl Harbor. He left Akagi in January 1942.


glenn239 wrote:
04 Feb 2024 15:19
the preparations for the attack on the American fleet were well-advanced. There is no question but that Akagi will have allocated three fighter pilots to this strike as of 1025.
Wrong. 3 Zeros were indeed assigned to the escort of the second wave attack. However, the "3 Zeros" when Akagi was hit were not these. They had been ordered by the “Otsu” Air Staff Officer to “Take off for CAP as soon as the preparations are completed.'' at 10:22. His order was the response to the 1st Air Fleet HQ's order to strengthen the air defense power.​

In other words, the preparation for the second wave attack unit was not completed at this time. According to 森史朗 「ミッドウェー海戦」 "The Battle of Midway” written by Mori Hiroshi, the situation was;
Coming up to the Akagi flight deck from the crew waiting room, Kimura Koreo heard the sound of anti-aircraft battle bugles and looked up to see U.S. Navy dive bombers preparing to dive. Three CAP Zeros were pulled out on the flight deck, and maintenance staff in the cockpits were waiting for the pilots with their engines running at full speed. Kimura signaled to the command post and jumped into the lead AI-101. Although the tailwind was not suitable for takeoff, he forced the Zero to start. Just as the plane finally began to rise, he saw a blast erupt from the Akagi behind him, blowing the second Zero into an upright position.

↓ Note Kimura took off for CAP mission, not for the escort of the attack on the American fleet. It was the last takeoff from Akagi.
赤城 木村.jpg


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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by fontessa » 06 Feb 2024 16:32

glenn239 wrote:
04 Feb 2024 15:19
fontessa wrote:
03 Feb 2024 02:31

Sorry, what was "escorts as of 1025"?
I don't understand your question. It is common knowledge that the Akagi was hit around 1025 while, whether aircraft were on deck or not, the preparations for the attack on the American fleet were well advanced. There is no question but that Akagi will have allocated three fighter pilots to this strike as of 1025. The three pilots are not the ones I listed in red, they must have been the ones in blue. Which three?
I really didn't know what "escorts as of 1025" meant. So I checked Fuchida’s book “Midway”. And found the description below;
午前7時20分、赤城の司令部から「第2次攻撃隊、準備でき次第発艦せよ」との信号命令が下達された。
At 07:20 a.m., Akagi's headquarters issued a signal ordering, “Second attack force, take off as soon as it is ready.''
In other words, Kimura's Zero takes off as an escort plane for the second attack force and the story continues into the "Five Minutes of Fate."
This is false and the truth was, as I said in #201, he took off for CAP.

Just to be sure, the relevant part of the 1st Air Fleet Action Report is shown as the source.
https://www.jacar.archives.go.jp/aj/met ... L_TYPE=pdf pp25-26
0722: 赤城加賀急降下爆撃サルルヲ認ム。fC 準備出来次第発進ヲ令ス。
0722: Akagi and Kaga are being dive-bombed. Order fC (fC = fighter) take off as soon as ready.
0725: 赤城加賀火災ヲ認ム。fC 発艦開始。fC x 1 発艦。
0725: Fire breaks out in Akagi and Kaga. fC begins to take off. fC x 1 took off.

As Kate Squadron Bubtaicho LT Goto Jinichi 後藤仁一 said in #110, the second attack force was not ready, and Kates were still in the hangar. He was not in Kate's cockpit at this time. He saw the catastrophe of Akagi on the flight deck. Why did Fuchida write something that is not true? . . His book “Midway”, published in 1953, influenced many people. Its English version is said to have influenced even Dr. Morrison’s work. There is a lot of criticism of his book now, but I won't go into it.

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by weiyan » 08 Feb 2024 14:35

5 June 1942
Akagi Fighters Unit 赤城戦闘機隊
Hikotaicho 飛行隊長
Lt Itaya Shigeru 板谷茂

1st Buntai 第1分隊
Buntaicho 分隊長
Lt Shirane Ayao 白根斐夫
12th Shotai 第12小隊
Lt Shirane Ayao 白根斐夫
PO1c Kikuchi Tetsuo 菊地哲生
PO2c Iishi Seiji 井石清次
13th Shotai 第13小隊
PO1c Omori Shigetaka 大森茂高
PO1c Iwama Shinaji 岩間品次
PO3c Mori Sakae 森栄
14th Shotai 第14小隊
PO1c Kimura Koreo 木村惟雄
PO2c Kawada Yozo 川田要三
Sea1c Ishida Masashi 石田正志

Ono Zenji = 小野善治

2nd Buntai 第2分隊
Buntaicho 分隊長
Lt Ibusuki Masanobu 指宿正信
15th Shotai 第15小隊
Lt Ibusuki Masanobu 指宿正信
PO1c Iwashiro Yoshio 岩城芳雄
PO3c Hanyu Toichirō 羽生十一郎
16th Shotai 第16小隊
WO Osanai Suekichi 小山内末吉
PO1c Taniguchi Masao 谷口正夫
PO3c Takasuga Mitsuyoshi 高須賀滿美
17th Shotai 第17小隊 ?
PO1c Tanaka Katsumi 田中克視
PO2c Ohara Hiroshi 大原広司
Sea1c Sano Shinpei 佐野信平

Ono Zenji = 小野善治

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by fontessa » 08 Feb 2024 18:24

weiyan wrote:
08 Feb 2024 14:35
5 June 1942
Akagi Fighters Unit 赤城戦闘機隊
Hikotaicho 飛行隊長
Lt Itaya Shigeru 板谷茂

1st Buntai 第1分隊
Buntaicho 分隊長
Lt Shirane Ayao 白根斐夫
12th Shotai 第12小隊
Lt Shirane Ayao 白根斐夫
PO1c Kikuchi Tetsuo 菊地哲生
PO2c Iishi Seiji 井石清次
13th Shotai 第13小隊
PO1c Omori Shigetaka 大森茂高
PO1c Iwama Shinaji 岩間品次
PO3c Mori Sakae 森栄
14th Shotai 第14小隊
PO1c Kimura Koreo 木村惟雄
PO2c Kawada Yozo 川田要三
Sea1c Ishida Masashi 石田正志

Ono Zenji = 小野善治

2nd Buntai 第2分隊
Buntaicho 分隊長
Lt Ibusuki Masanobu 指宿正信
15th Shotai 第15小隊
Lt Ibusuki Masanobu 指宿正信
PO1c Iwashiro Yoshio 岩城芳雄
PO3c Hanyu Toichirō 羽生十一郎
16th Shotai 第16小隊
WO Osanai Suekichi 小山内末吉
PO1c Taniguchi Masao 谷口正夫
PO3c Takasuga Mitsuyoshi 高須賀滿美
17th Shotai 第17小隊 ?
PO1c Tanaka Katsumi 田中克視
PO2c Ohara Hiroshi 大原広司
Sea1c Sano Shinpei 佐野信平

Ono Zenji = 小野善治
Thanks. Was "Ono Zenji = 小野善治" 機付長 chief mechanic ?

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by weiyan » 09 Feb 2024 14:31

Ono Zenji otsu2 小野善次 乙飛2期
Fighters
PO1c Kasumiura Air Group
1 August 1942:Hiyo
1 November 1942:WO
13 November 1942:KIA

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by fontessa » 09 Feb 2024 19:38

weiyan wrote:
09 Feb 2024 14:31
Ono Zenji otsu2 小野善次 乙飛2期
Fighters
PO1c Kasumiura Air Group
1 August 1942:Hiyo
1 November 1942:WO
13 November 1942:KIA
Thanks. 小野善治 was a typo of 小野善次.

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by weiyan » 10 Feb 2024 15:02

A fighter pilot who did not appear on the list during the Midway naval battle
Kaga
Lt Sato Masao 佐藤正夫
Soryu
Sea2c Nagamine Zaburou 永峰三郎
Hiryu
WO Watanabe Tada 渡辺直

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by fontessa » 12 Feb 2024 12:09

weiyan wrote:
10 Feb 2024 15:02
A fighter pilot who did not appear on the list during the Midway naval battle
Kaga
Lt Sato Masao 佐藤正夫
Kaga fighter squadron had 2 Bntaichos, LT Shiga Yoshio 志賀淑雄, and LT Nikaido Yasushi 二階堂易 at Peal Habor attack.
LT Shiga angered Commanding Officer CAPT Okada Jisaku 岡田次作and was forced to leave Kaga on April 15th. LT Mikami Yoshitaka 三上良孝 was his successor. LT Nikaido went missing on May 8th while moving in Japan. LT Sato of Omura Naval Air Group was appointed as Nikaido's successor on May 15. However, he was not on board Kaga when the 1st Air Fleet departed from Kure on 27 May. Omura was located very close to Kure, so moving from Omura to Kure was easy. It is unclear why he did not board Kaga. In other words, there was only one Buntaichou LT Mikami in the Kaga fighter squadron. And he was KIA on June 5th. The Kaga fighter unit for the first attack escort was commanded by LT Izuka Masao 飯塚雅夫, who had just been promoted from LTJG on May 1 and was not a Buntaicho. LT Sato was appointed Zuiho Hikotaicho on 20 June 1942. Usually in Jirei Koho, the old post was shown with the new post. However, their old posts were not shown for the concealment of the sinking of the aircraft carriers as LCDR Murata Choji 村田重治 Akagi Buntaicho's case.

佐藤正夫 2.jpg

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by weiyan » 12 Feb 2024 15:37

LT Mikami Yoshitaka 三上良孝 was a Kate Pilot.
LTJG Izuka Masao 飯塚雅夫 was promoted Buntaicho of Fighters on 15 April 1942.

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by fontessa » 12 Feb 2024 15:54

weiyan wrote:
12 Feb 2024 15:37
LT Mikami Yoshitaka 三上良孝 was a Kate Pilot.
LTJG Izuka Masao 飯塚雅夫 was promoted Buntaicho of Fighters on 15 April 1942.
I have taken a mistake. Thanks for the correction.

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