IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

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fontessa
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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by fontessa » 21 Aug 2023 05:12

LAstryAGAIN wrote:
15 Aug 2023 15:59
zuikaku-s-dive-bombers https://japanese-aviation.forumotion.co ... ve-bombers
Thanks. Zuikaku Dive Bombing Val Formation is not left. It is blank even in Senshi Sosho. So, the above info is very important. The reason why Senshi Sosho says nothing about Zuikaku Dive Bombing Val Formation at Pearl Harbor is that the Action Report on that day is lost. But the Action Report shows the Zuikaku Dive Bombing Val Formation on 20 January 1942 during the Rabaul capture operation and 5 April of Ceylon operation. These two were the completely same. So it is considered reasonable to assume that the same was true at Pearl Harbor. The 1st chart shows it - assumed Zuikaku Dive Bombing Val Formation on 8 December 1941.

Here's what I had trouble with. In the configuration of Zuikaku Dive Bombing, there is one Chutaicho / SDN commander and one SDN commander. But the Link you quarted has two BTN commanders. LT Ema Tamotsu and FPO2 Mori kenji. Considering their ranks, the latter is clearly wrong, and even in the 1st Chart he is in the position - 26th BTN 2nd plane position. I agree with it.

97 99艦爆 急降下撃隊形 瑞鶴第1波.jpg

97 99艦爆 急降下撃隊形 瑞鶴第1波 階級.jpg

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glenn239
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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by glenn239 » 21 Aug 2023 16:53

fontessa wrote:
17 Aug 2023 00:20
There are hearsay stories of other losses as well.
The Hawaiian Op losses chart cannot be completely inclusive. Here, IIZUKA, Tokuji indicates that his Akagi Val pranged on recovery, damaged beyond fleet repair, and was stored below for return to factory in Japan.

https://j-aircraft.com/research/jimlans ... part2.html

Yet, in the chart his Val has to be listed amongst those that were repaired aboard carrier.

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fontessa
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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by fontessa » 21 Aug 2023 19:28

glenn239 wrote:
21 Aug 2023 16:53
fontessa wrote:
17 Aug 2023 00:20
There are hearsay stories of other losses as well.
The Hawaiian Op losses chart cannot be completely inclusive. Here, IIZUKA, Tokuji indicates that his Akagi Val pranged on recovery, damaged beyond fleet repair, and was stored below for return to factory in Japan.

https://j-aircraft.com/research/jimlans ... part2.html

Yet, in the chart his Val has to be listed amongst those that were repaired aboard carrier.
Thanks. In #24 in this thread, the repaired aircraft numbers were;
 Back to Japan to be repaired at the arsenal: one revel bombing Kate
 Repaired in carriers: 121 total
The number of planes scrapped because they could not be repaired is not shown. The airplane back to Japan to be repaired at the arsenal was different from Iizuka's recollection. His Val may have been scrapped.

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by glenn239 » 21 Aug 2023 23:52

I've seen other references to the type of structural damage Iizuka describes on his plane from possible enemy fire which, after Coral Sea, also required return to factory. For the PH attack, I've seen it said that the IJN literally combed out almost all D3A1's available in Japan. Between a repairable plane being scrapped even after being stowed below for return to factory, or the report being incomplete, I would be inclined to the latter.

I've also seen reports of a Zero lost on take off from the first wave that does not appear in the report.

The other thing that catches my attention is the 2nd Car Div attack on Wake after the Pearl Harbor attack. The number of Vals lost at PH was 4 out of 36, but the number of Vals that participated in the attack was apparently 29. I could see maybe one mechanical failure, but three seems more like Vals aboard 2nd Div that had not yet been repaired by the time of Wake Island?

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by fontessa » 22 Aug 2023 15:49

glenn239 wrote:
21 Aug 2023 23:52
I've seen other references to the type of structural damage Iizuka describes on his plane from possible enemy fire which, after Coral Sea, also required return to factory. For the PH attack, I've seen it said that the IJN literally combed out almost all D3A1's available in Japan. Between a repairable plane being scrapped even after being stowed below for return to factory, or the report being incomplete, I would be inclined to the latter.

I've also seen reports of a Zero lost on take off from the first wave that does not appear in the report.

The other thing that catches my attention is the 2nd Car Div attack on Wake after the Pearl Harbor attack. The number of Vals lost at PH was 4 out of 36, but the number of Vals that participated in the attack was apparently 29. I could see maybe one mechanical failure, but three seems more like Vals aboard 2nd Div that had not yet been repaired by the time of Wake Island?
The 1st chart shows the Soryu Dive Bombing Val Formation at Pearl Haber 2nd Wave. Two Vals and their crew were lost.
The 2nd chart shows the Soryu Dive Bombing Val Formation at Wake Island. Of the remaining 16 Vals, 15 Vals were used.
The source is Soryu Dive Bombing Unit Action Report.
The 3rd chart Shows Hiryu Dive Bombing Val Formation at Pearl Haber 2nd Wave. Also, two Vals and their crew were lost.
The 4th chart shows the Hiryu Dive Bombing Val Formation at Wake Island.
The source is Hiryu Dive Bombing Unit Action Report.
Creamery the Soryu unit was the main force and the Hiryu unit was the auxiliary.
Abbreviations
Red means the SDN commander.
Green means the BTN commander.
Blue means Wingman.
(R) means "rear seat crew".

97 99艦爆 急降下撃隊形 蒼龍第2波.jpg

97 99艦爆 急降下撃隊形 蒼龍 ウェーク島攻撃.jpg

97 99艦爆 急降下撃隊形 飛龍第2波.jpg

97 99艦爆 急降下撃隊形 飛龍 ウェーク島攻撃.jpg

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by glenn239 » 22 Aug 2023 17:14

Interesting - Kobayashi was a scratch at Pearl Harbor due to engine trouble?

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by fontessa » 22 Aug 2023 17:34

glenn239 wrote:
22 Aug 2023 17:14
Interesting - Kobayashi was a scratch at Pearl Harbor due to engine trouble?
Oh, I missed the notation in the Action Report that Kobayashi turned back due to engine trouble.

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by fontessa » 23 Aug 2023 23:19

The 1st chart shows Akagi Dive Bombing Val Formation at Pearl Harbor 2md Wave. 4 Vals and their crew were lost.
The 2nd chart shows Kaga Bombing Val Formation at Pearl Harbor 2md Wave. 5 Vals and their crew were lost.
These Vals strafed airfields after dive-bombing US ships. At this time, they were hit by anti-aircraft guns on the airfield. The number of bullets hit is indicated by purple numbers on each main wingtip. These could be repaired on aircraft carriers.
Abbreviations
Black shows the Chutai commander.
Red means the Shotai commnder.
Green means Buntai commander.
Blue means Wingman.
(R) means "rear seat crew".

97 99艦爆 急降下撃隊形 赤城第2波.jpg

97 99艦爆 急降下撃隊形 加賀第2波.jpg

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by LAstryAGAIN » 24 Aug 2023 02:21

Thanks very much for latest contribtions for IJN losses damaged/lost it certainly fills in the historical record :milwink: :welcome: :thumbsup:

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by glenn239 » 24 Aug 2023 18:52

fontessa wrote:
23 Aug 2023 23:19
The 1st chart shows Akagi Dive Bombing Val Formation at Pearl Harbor 2md Wave. 4 Vals and their crew were lost.
What does the blue box around Izuka's Val mean in the Akagi strike, that he crash-landed?

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by fontessa » 25 Aug 2023 04:17

glenn239 wrote:
24 Aug 2023 18:52
fontessa wrote:
23 Aug 2023 23:19
The 1st chart shows Akagi Dive Bombing Val Formation at Pearl Harbor 2md Wave. 4 Vals and their crew were lost.
What does the blue box around Izuka's Val mean in the Akagi strike, that he crash-landed?
Yes, I want to upload something about Iizuka's recollection. One question. Does the below statement mean his Val landed on Akagi? I'm not sure because my English is poor. Google Translate translated "On our return to the Akagi" to Japanese "赤城に戻る途中 (On the way back to Akagi)".
 - "On our return to the Akagi" we made an emergency landing.

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by glenn239 » 25 Aug 2023 17:35

fontessa wrote:
25 Aug 2023 04:17

Yes, I want to upload something about Iizuka's recollection. One question. Does the below statement mean his Val landed on Akagi? I'm not sure because my English is poor. Google Translate translated "On our return to the Akagi" to Japanese "赤城に戻る途中 (On the way back to Akagi)".
 - "On our return to the Akagi" we made an emergency landing.
Yes, his account means that he landed on Akagi. His aircraft hit the crash barrier and was damaged beyond capacity for repair aboard Akagi. He says it was taken to the hanger for return to Japan. I am strongly inclined to believe this account over the idea that the plane was dumped overboard because there would be room in the hanger to store the plane without compromising combat capability, and he mentions nothing of damage to the plane's landing gear, meaning it should be easy to move about.

I am also curious as to your take of his account in part 3 of the link I provided. He says he was wounded in early March. He makes no mention of flying in any Indian Ocean missions, but he seems not to have left the ship. Akagi was the main medical ship for 1st Air Fleet, and between March and May 1942 there were not any opportunities to return to Japan on Akagi, so would it be unusual for him to remain aboard recovering in those months?

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by fontessa » 26 Aug 2023 07:09

glenn239 wrote:
25 Aug 2023 17:35
Yes, his account means that he landed on Akagi. His aircraft hit the crash barrier and was damaged beyond capacity for repair aboard Akagi. He says it was taken to the hanger for return to Japan. I am strongly inclined to believe this account over the idea that the plane was dumped overboard because there would be room in the hanger to store the plane without compromising combat capability, and he mentions nothing of damage to the plane's landing gear, meaning it should be easy to move about.
Thanks. I found his other recollection written in Japanese. He surely landed on Akagi. He got 3 bullets as shown in the chart of my #30 upload. According to the other recollection, one bullet hit the rear 7.7mm MG spare magazine mount and tow hit the root and center of the right wing. It seems that he was shot from the P-36. It's a big surprise that enough fuel leaked out of just one tiny hole to make it difficult to get back to Akagi.

Regarding his Val landing, the recollection says as below. But other recollection says nothing,
There were three elevators to lower the planes to their hangers below. While one plane was being lowered, but before it was stored in its hanger, the next plane landed. A barricade had to be set up on deck to prevent the plane that was landing from running into the plane in front of it. In my case, the wing hit this barricade, and the body folded up, doglegged, at the spot where the hinomaru is painted.
I don't quite understand what he's saying. The picture below shows the landing procedure as generally described. Only the front elevator was used to avoid the accident mentioned above. The blue part may be saying the same thing. . .

97 着艦機収容.jpg



glenn239 wrote:
25 Aug 2023 17:35
I am also curious as to your take on his account in part 3 of the link I provided. He says he was wounded in early March. He makes no mention of flying in any Indian Ocean missions, but he seems not to have left the ship. Akagi was the main medical ship for 1st Air Fleet, and between March and May 1942 there were not any opportunities to return to Japan on Akagi, so would it be unusual for him to remain aboard recovering in those months?
The 1st Air Fleet returned to Japan in late December and lost airplanes were replenished. I could confirm that Iizuka flew Val at least in the attacks against Port Darwin on February 19th and USS Pecos on March 1st. But he didn’t join the attacks against HMS Cornwall / Dorsetshire on April 5th and HMS Hermes on April 9th. It is said that he was injured and transferred to instructor duty in Japan,

97 99艦爆 急降下撃隊形 赤城 ポートダーウィン 17.2.19.jpg

97 99艦爆 急降下撃隊形 赤城 ペコスン 17.3.1.jpg

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by glenn239 » 26 Aug 2023 14:09

fontessa wrote:
26 Aug 2023 07:09
I don't quite understand what he's saying. The picture below shows the landing procedure as generally described. Only the front elevator was used to avoid the accident mentioned above. The blue part may be saying the same thing. . .
Not sure. What are the two structures across the deck, circled in orange? Are they crash barriers or something else?
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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by glenn239 » 26 Aug 2023 14:14

fontessa wrote:
26 Aug 2023 07:09
The 1st Air Fleet returned to Japan in late December and lost airplanes were replenished. I could confirm that Iizuka flew Val at least in the attacks against Port Darwin on February 19th and USS Pecos on March 1st. But he didn’t join the attacks against HMS Cornwall / Dorsetshire on April 5th and HMS Hermes on April 9th. It is said that he was injured and transferred to instructor duty in Japan,
His account says that he was injured in March, but transferred to instructor duty in Japan only at the end of June 1942 after the debacle at Midway. His account of his experiences at Midway are not in accord with revisionist accounts of the battle. He mentions being wounded in March, which explains why he did not fly in the Indian Ocean. Given that Akagi was the fleet's medical ship, and that Akagi did not return to Japan until after the Indian Ocean Raid, would there be any reason for a wounded pilot expected to return to service to leave the ship, or would he remain aboard until ready to fly?

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