IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

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fontessa
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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by fontessa » 26 Aug 2023 16:25

glenn239 wrote:
26 Aug 2023 14:09
fontessa wrote:
26 Aug 2023 07:09
I don't quite understand what he's saying. The picture below shows the landing procedure as generally described. Only the front elevator was used to avoid the accident mentioned above. The blue part may be saying the same thing. . .
Not sure. What are the two structures across the deck, circled in orange? Are they crash barriers or something else?
Yes, these were barriers for fall prevention when the front elevator was down.

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by fontessa » 26 Aug 2023 21:51

glenn239 wrote:
21 Aug 2023 23:52
I've also seen reports of a Zero lost on take off from the first wave that does not appear in the report.
LTJG Fujita Iyozo saw it maybe on the deck. He was the Buntaicho of the 2nd Buntai (BTN) / Soryu 2nd wave fighter group. And he sows とんぼ釣り destroyer picked up the unclear name pilot. This Zero was not listed in the table I uploaded in #24 of this thread.

He himself crashed with the barricade. The engine of his Zero was hit over Pearl Harbor. He returned to Soryu to soothe the malfunctioning engine and landed, but his Zero had difficulty controlling and crashed into the barricade.

Moreover, he saw that the air guard Zero failed to land and fell into the sea on the same day. The air guard mission was assigned to relatively inexperienced pilots. 3 Zeros had been up from Soryu. In the evening, they landed after completing their guard missions. The first and second landed successfully, but the third failed. After a few tries, he descended, but could not catch all the restraining wires. The barricades had been lowered after all the attacking planes had landed. So the Zero slides down the deck and falls into the sea, and Soryu runs on it. The とんぼ釣り destroyer rushed there but it was unable to save the unclear name pilot. This Zero was also not listed in the table I uploaded in #24 of this thread.

LCDR Fujita Iyozo recalls these experiences after the war.

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by Eugen Pinak » 27 Aug 2023 17:23

fontessa wrote:
26 Aug 2023 21:51
Moreover, he saw that the air guard Zero failed to land and fell into the sea on the same day. The air guard mission was assigned to relatively inexperienced pilots. 3 Zeros had been up from Soryu. In the evening, they landed after completing their guard missions. The first and second landed successfully, but the third failed. After a few tries, he descended, but could not catch all the restraining wires. The barricades had been lowered after all the attacking planes had landed. So the Zero slides down the deck and falls into the sea, and Soryu runs on it. The とんぼ釣り destroyer rushed there but it was unable to save the unclear name pilot. This Zero was also not listed in the table I uploaded in #24 of this thread.
Thank you for the story.
Pilot's name was Nomura > 野村 ?良 二飛曹

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by fontessa » 27 Aug 2023 19:58

Eugen Pinak wrote:
27 Aug 2023 17:23
fontessa wrote:
26 Aug 2023 21:51
Moreover, he saw that the air guard Zero failed to land and fell into the sea on the same day. The air guard mission was assigned to relatively inexperienced pilots. 3 Zeros had been up from Soryu. In the evening, they landed after completing their guard missions. The first and second landed successfully, but the third failed. After a few tries, he descended, but could not catch all the restraining wires. The barricades had been lowered after all the attacking planes had landed. So the Zero slides down the deck and falls into the sea, and Soryu runs on it. The とんぼ釣り destroyer rushed there but it was unable to save the unclear name pilot. This Zero was also not listed in the table I uploaded in #24 of this thread.
Thank you for the story.
Pilot's name was Nomura > 野村 ?良 二飛曹
Thanks.

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by glenn239 » 29 Aug 2023 17:01

fontessa wrote:
26 Aug 2023 16:25
Yes, these were barriers for fall prevention when the front elevator was down.
That makes sense. So in all probability the crash barrier that Iizuka made contact with were the lighter ones aft of the forward elevator, that he did not cross over the elevator and hit that big, heavier barrier ahead of the forward elevator. Also, it appears from that schematic that the maximum size of a D3A1 deck park Akagi could have and also land aircraft was 9?

Iizuka's account makes no mention of being reassigned from Akagi until the end of June after she'd sunk, so with the wounding in March I think the only conclusion would be that he remained aboard the ship recovering, but did not participate in the Indian Ocean attacks because he was still not flight certified, but after returning to Japan in May he was ready and reinstated to flight status?

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by fontessa » 29 Aug 2023 22:11

glenn239 wrote:
29 Aug 2023 17:01
fontessa wrote:
26 Aug 2023 16:25
Yes, these were barriers for fall prevention when the front elevator was down.
That makes sense. So in all probability the crash barrier that Iizuka made contact with were the lighter ones aft of the forward elevator, that he did not cross over the elevator and hit that big, heavier barrier ahead of the forward elevator.
I wasn't aware of the barriers you pointed out, so I didn't understand what Iizuka was saying. But now I fully understand. Thanks.


glenn239 wrote:
29 Aug 2023 17:01
Also, it appears from that schematic that the maximum size of a D3A1 deck park Akagi could have and also land aircraft was 9?
The picture used to explain the operation at the time of landing seems to be a Shokaku class from the positional relationship between the bridge and the elevator. If we look closely at this picture, it seems that the 1st, 3rd, and 5th planes are Val, and the 2nd, 4th, and 6thcolumn planes are Zeros. Val was roughly 1.1 times larger than Zero, so I doubt 9 Vals was possible. But according to what Iizuka said, landed airplanes didn't accumulate so much, and seemed that the elevator quickly lowered them.

97 着艦機収容 2.jpg


97 空母飛行甲板.jpg


glenn239 wrote:
29 Aug 2023 17:01
Iizuka's account makes no mention of being reassigned from Akagi until the end of June after she'd sunk, so with the wounding in March I think the only conclusion would be that he remained aboard the ship recovering, but did not participate in the Indian Ocean attacks because he was still not flight certified, but after returning to Japan in May he was ready and reinstated to flight status?
USS Pecos was sunk in Dutch India on 1 March. I'm not sure, but Iizuka probably left Akagi before she left there for Ceylon.


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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by glenn239 » 30 Aug 2023 20:33

fontessa wrote:
29 Aug 2023 22:11
The picture used to explain the operation at the time of landing seems to be a Shokaku class from the positional relationship between the bridge and the elevator. If we look closely at this picture, it seems that the 1st, 3rd, and 5th planes are Val, and the 2nd, 4th, and 6thcolumn planes are Zeros. Val was roughly 1.1 times larger than Zero, so I doubt 9 Vals was possible. But according to what Iizuka said, landed airplanes didn't accumulate so much, and seemed that the elevator quickly lowered them.
That's a good point. The type that I'm most interested in would be B5N2's, not necessarily D3A1's. The answer to the number of Kates that could be parked forward of the crash barrier with their wings folded looks to be 15?
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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by glenn239 » 30 Aug 2023 20:42

fontessa wrote:
29 Aug 2023 22:11

USS Pecos was sunk in Dutch India on 1 March. I'm not sure, but Iizuka probably left Akagi before she left there for Ceylon.
Yes, you indicated that you thought he was reassigned to an airbase in Japan after the Pecos incident. But Iizuka himself did not say that, he said that he was with Akagi air group when she was sunk at Midway. Given that Nagumo's carriers were short of expert dive bomber pilots for the Midway operation, in part due to 5th Division's battle at Coral Sea and in part due to the commissioning of the Junyo, it doesn't seem to make sense that Iizuka would be removed from Akagi's air group at a time when the IJN did not have enough D3A1 crews.

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by fontessa » 31 Aug 2023 12:10

glenn239 wrote:
30 Aug 2023 20:42
fontessa wrote:
29 Aug 2023 22:11

USS Pecos was sunk in Dutch India on 1 March. I'm not sure, but Iizuka probably left Akagi before she left there for Ceylon.
But Iizuka himself did not say that, he said that he was with Akagi air group when she was sunk at Midway.
Sure? Did he go to Midway on Akagi's medical room bed? Hard to believe. Akagi returned to Yokosuka, Japan on 24 April 1943. It was determined that her number of Kate was reduced from 27 to 18 on 1 April 1943. So extras Kate and crew left her there. I believe Iizuka also left her at this time at the latest. The 1st Air Fleet departed Hashirajima Anchorage on 27 May 1943.

Numbers of airplanes
Operational / Spare
Pearl Harbor
Akagi
Zero: 18 /3
Kate: 27 / 3
Val: 18 /3
Kaga
Zero: 18 /3
Kate: 27 / 3
Val: 27 / 3
Soryu
Zero: 18 /3
Kate: 18 /3
Val: 18 /3
Hiryu
Zero: 18 /3
Kate: 18 /3
Val: 18 /3
Shokaku
Zero: 18 /3
Kate: 27 / 3
Val: 27 / 3
Zuikaku
Kate:Zero: 18 /3
Kate: 27 / 3
Val: 27 / 3
Midway
Akagi
Zero: 18 /3
Kate: 18 /3
Val: 18 /3
Kaga
Zero: 18 /3
Kate: 27 / 3
Val: 18 /3
Soryu
Kate: 18 /3
Val: 18 /3
Zero: 18 /3

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Last edited by fontessa on 31 Aug 2023 17:39, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by Eugen Pinak » 31 Aug 2023 12:45

glenn239 wrote:
30 Aug 2023 20:42
But Iizuka himself did not say that, he said that he was with Akagi air group when she was sunk at Midway.
Veterans sometimes say a lot of interesting things...
Iizuka was not in the "Akagi" dive-bomber squadron flying roster at Midway.

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by fontessa » 31 Aug 2023 13:13

Eugen Pinak wrote:
31 Aug 2023 12:45
glenn239 wrote:
30 Aug 2023 20:42
But Iizuka himself did not say that, he said that he was with Akagi air group when she was sunk at Midway.
Veterans sometimes say a lot of interesting things...
Iizuka was not in the "Akagi" dive-bomber squadron flying roster at Midway.
Yes. Thanks. His rear seater crew FPO2 Kawai Hiroshi was still on Akagi.
97 99艦爆 急降下撃隊形 赤城 ミッドウェイ CHECK.jpg

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by Eugen Pinak » 01 Sep 2023 07:50

fontessa wrote:
31 Aug 2023 13:13
Eugen Pinak wrote:
31 Aug 2023 12:45
glenn239 wrote:
30 Aug 2023 20:42
But Iizuka himself did not say that, he said that he was with Akagi air group when she was sunk at Midway.
Veterans sometimes say a lot of interesting things...
Iizuka was not in the "Akagi" dive-bomber squadron flying roster at Midway.
Yes. Thanks. His rear seater crew FPO2 Kawai Hiroshi was still on Akagi.
Exactly. Which means its not a crew missing combat flight for some reason, but crew was broken and one member reassigned away.

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by fontessa » 02 Sep 2023 11:06

glenn239 wrote:
30 Aug 2023 20:33
The type that I'm most interested in would be B5N2's, not necessarily D3A1's. The answer to the number of Kates that could be parked forward of the crash barrier with their wings folded looks to be 15?
Oh, sorry. It was possible because Kate's size with the wings folded was roughly 7.3m (W) x 10.3m (L). However, usually Zero or Val were parked on the flight deck. Below is the maximum number of Zeros parkable on the flight deck. I guess a total of 18 Zeros of the 6th Air Group scheduled to deploy to Midway were parked on Akagi and Kaga.
 on Akagi: 5
 on Kaga: 15
 on Shokaku and Zuikaku: 12 each
According to the Akagi Action Report, 2 Zeros of the 6th Air Group on Akagi participated in the fleet air guard. Although the Kaga Action Report doesn’t show the notes, I think Zeros of the 6th Air Group on Kaga also participated in the Fleet Air Guard.

97 赤城 上空直衛 ミッドウェイ.jpg

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by glenn239 » 07 Sep 2023 17:22

fontessa wrote:
02 Sep 2023 11:06

According to the Akagi Action Report, 2 Zeros of the 6th Air Group on Akagi participated in the fleet air guard. Although the Kaga Action Report doesn’t show the notes, I think Zeros of the 6th Air Group on Kaga also participated in the Fleet Air Guard.
That makes sense. Kaga's fighter log shows it's fighter unit entirely engaged around 10am, so it would make sense that a 6th Ku section was earmarked for the escort operation. And if that were so, then others participating in the CAP action was also logical.

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Re: IJN Aircraft losses 7 December 1941

Post by glenn239 » 07 Sep 2023 18:55

fontessa wrote:
31 Aug 2023 12:10
Sure? Did he go to Midway on Akagi's medical room bed? Hard to believe. Akagi returned to Yokosuka, Japan on 24 April 1943. It was determined that her number of Kate was reduced from 27 to 18 on 1 April 1943. So extras Kate and crew left her there. I believe Iizuka also left her at this time at the latest. The 1st Air Fleet departed Hashirajima Anchorage on 27 May 1943.
Iizuka flew Vals so a Kate reduction I don't see being a factor. But I did have a question - after being reduced to 18, do you think Akagi would have held on to its support equipment for a 27 plane squadron, such as arming carts?

If Iizuka was transferred to USA in April then he'd have said he was transferred to USA in April. He had no reason to lie. His description of his wounds do not seem like they required a hospital bed, only for the swelling to subside so that flight status could be restored. I think it's absolutely credible that he would remain aboard Akagi, miss operations in the Indian Ocean due to injuries, then recover flight status in the weeks afterwards. I see no basis for Akagi flight records mattering because these were destroyed in the battle. His account of the battle matches the only other Akagi D3A1 pilot's account I've seen, so there is nothing remarkable in it either.

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