IJN Yamato or IJN Musashi?

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BayonetOnAZero
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IJN Yamato or IJN Musashi?

Post by BayonetOnAZero » 10 Oct 2023 18:50

IMG_2925.jpeg
The captions I’ve seen of this photo during the Battle of Leyte Gulf states that this is the YAMATO, and judging by the anti-air arrangement it appears to be. However, the No. 1 Main Battery it has a dark grey paint as seen on the MUSASHI. I would like some assistance with identifying if this is the YAMATO or MUSASHI.
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What has happened has happened, history is history. We must accept and embrace the things that we are passionate about and the atrocities that had been committed. Denying history is an atrocity in itself.

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fontessa
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Re: IJN Yamato or IJN Musashi?

Post by fontessa » 10 Oct 2023 19:53

BayonetOnAZero wrote:
10 Oct 2023 18:50
IMG_2925.jpeg

The captions I’ve seen of this photo during the Battle of Leyte Gulf states that this is the YAMATO, and judging by the anti-air arrangement it appears to be. However, the No. 1 Main Battery it has a dark grey paint as seen on the MUSASHI. I would like some assistance with identifying if this is the YAMATO or MUSASHI.
She looks like Yamato.
Yamato shown blow also had ”black” 1st turret.


大和.jpg

fontessa
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BayonetOnAZero
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Re: IJN Yamato or IJN Musashi?

Post by BayonetOnAZero » 11 Oct 2023 18:31

fontessa wrote:
10 Oct 2023 19:53
BayonetOnAZero wrote:
10 Oct 2023 18:50
IMG_2925.jpeg

The captions I’ve seen of this photo during the Battle of Leyte Gulf states that this is the YAMATO, and judging by the anti-air arrangement it appears to be. However, the No. 1 Main Battery it has a dark grey paint as seen on the MUSASHI. I would like some assistance with identifying if this is the YAMATO or MUSASHI.
She looks like Yamato.
Yamato shown blow also had ”black” 1st turret.



大和.jpg


fontessa
The issue here is that that’s the same image but rotated 90º clockwise. I know that the Musashi had the dark grey paint on the No. 1 Main Battery but as far as I have seen in the photos of Yamato during 1944, she never had a dark grey paint on the No. 1 Main Battery.
What has happened has happened, history is history. We must accept and embrace the things that we are passionate about and the atrocities that had been committed. Denying history is an atrocity in itself.

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fontessa
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Re: IJN Yamato or IJN Musashi?

Post by fontessa » 11 Oct 2023 21:38

BayonetOnAZero wrote:
11 Oct 2023 18:31
fontessa wrote:
10 Oct 2023 19:53
BayonetOnAZero wrote:
10 Oct 2023 18:50
IMG_2925.jpeg

The captions I’ve seen of this photo during the Battle of Leyte Gulf states that this is the YAMATO, and judging by the anti-air arrangement it appears to be. However, the No. 1 Main Battery it has a dark grey paint as seen on the MUSASHI. I would like some assistance with identifying if this is the YAMATO or MUSASHI.
She looks like Yamato.
Yamato shown blow also had ”black” 1st turret.



大和.jpg


fontessa
The issue here is that that’s the same image but rotated 90º clockwise. I know that the Musashi had the dark grey paint on the No. 1 Main Battery but as far as I have seen in the photos of Yamato during 1944, she never had a dark grey paint on the No. 1 Main Battery.
Oh, understood. Sorry for the rough investigation.

The upper photo shows Yamato on 7 April 1945 at Tokyo Time. The semicircle between No. 1 and No. 2 was 25 mm MC urrets made of sandbags that were hastily constructed for "Okinawa" Operation. Main Battery No.1 was not "Black" clearly.
The lower photo says that she was Yamato on 26 October 1944 at Tokyo Time at Sibuyan Sea. The VADM Flag on the rear mast indicated that VADM Kurita was on board. Can you identify her as Yamato from the anti-aircraft fire equipment? The A-A equipment must have been denser than Musashi. Unfortunately, it's not clear because the photo was right after the bomb hit Main Battery No.1, but to me, it looks like the left fronts portions of No. 1 and No. 2 Main Battery were the same color. I'm not confident though...
Are there any clearer photos in the U.S. Archives?

大和 沖縄.jpg

大和 シブヤン海.jpg

fontessa
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BayonetOnAZero
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Re: IJN Yamato or IJN Musashi?

Post by BayonetOnAZero » 11 Oct 2023 21:57

fontessa wrote:
11 Oct 2023 21:38
BayonetOnAZero wrote:
11 Oct 2023 18:31
fontessa wrote:
10 Oct 2023 19:53
BayonetOnAZero wrote:
10 Oct 2023 18:50
IMG_2925.jpeg

The captions I’ve seen of this photo during the Battle of Leyte Gulf states that this is the YAMATO, and judging by the anti-air arrangement it appears to be. However, the No. 1 Main Battery it has a dark grey paint as seen on the MUSASHI. I would like some assistance with identifying if this is the YAMATO or MUSASHI.
She looks like Yamato.
Yamato shown blow also had ”black” 1st turret.



大和.jpg


fontessa
The issue here is that that’s the same image but rotated 90º clockwise. I know that the Musashi had the dark grey paint on the No. 1 Main Battery but as far as I have seen in the photos of Yamato during 1944, she never had a dark grey paint on the No. 1 Main Battery.
Oh, understood. Sorry for the rough investigation.

The upper photo shows Yamato on 7 April 1945 at Tokyo Time. The semicircle between No. 1 and No. 2 was 25 mm MC urrets made of sandbags that were hastily constructed for "Okinawa" Operation. Main Battery No.1 was not "Black" clearly.
The lower photo says that she was Yamato on 26 October 1944 at Tokyo Time at Sibuyan Sea. The VADM Flag on the rear mast indicated that VADM Kurita was on board. Can you identify her as Yamato from the anti-aircraft fire equipment? The A-A equipment must have been denser than Musashi. Unfortunately, it's not clear because the photo was right after the bomb hit Main Battery No.1, but to me, it looks like the left fronts portions of No. 1 and No. 2 Main Battery were the same color. I'm not confident though...
Are there any clearer photos in the U.S. Archives?


大和 沖縄.jpg



大和 シブヤン海.jpg


fontessa
During 1944 they both had the same AA layout but the Musashi had more 13.2 mm guns on one side (the port-side I believe). She was more asymmetrical than the Yamato but I can’t see in the photos. I then go for the No. 1 Main Battery paint color which as we know the Musashi’s No. 1 Main Battery was a dark grey and the Yamato’s was the same color as the rest.
What has happened has happened, history is history. We must accept and embrace the things that we are passionate about and the atrocities that had been committed. Denying history is an atrocity in itself.

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fontessa
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Re: IJN Yamato or IJN Musashi?

Post by fontessa » 11 Oct 2023 22:51

BayonetOnAZero wrote:
11 Oct 2023 21:57
fontessa wrote:
11 Oct 2023 21:38
BayonetOnAZero wrote:
11 Oct 2023 18:31
fontessa wrote:
10 Oct 2023 19:53
BayonetOnAZero wrote:
10 Oct 2023 18:50
IMG_2925.jpeg

The captions I’ve seen of this photo during the Battle of Leyte Gulf states that this is the YAMATO, and judging by the anti-air arrangement it appears to be. However, the No. 1 Main Battery it has a dark grey paint as seen on the MUSASHI. I would like some assistance with identifying if this is the YAMATO or MUSASHI.
She looks like Yamato.
Yamato shown blow also had ”black” 1st turret.



大和.jpg


fontessa
The issue here is that that’s the same image but rotated 90º clockwise. I know that the Musashi had the dark grey paint on the No. 1 Main Battery but as far as I have seen in the photos of Yamato during 1944, she never had a dark grey paint on the No. 1 Main Battery.
Oh, understood. Sorry for the rough investigation.

The upper photo shows Yamato on 7 April 1945 at Tokyo Time. The semicircle between No. 1 and No. 2 was 25 mm MC urrets made of sandbags that were hastily constructed for "Okinawa" Operation. Main Battery No.1 was not "Black" clearly.
The lower photo says that she was Yamato on 26 October 1944 at Tokyo Time at Sibuyan Sea. The VADM Flag on the rear mast indicated that VADM Kurita was on board. Can you identify her as Yamato from the anti-aircraft fire equipment? The A-A equipment must have been denser than Musashi. Unfortunately, it's not clear because the photo was right after the bomb hit Main Battery No.1, but to me, it looks like the left fronts portions of No. 1 and No. 2 Main Battery were the same color. I'm not confident though...
Are there any clearer photos in the U.S. Archives?


大和 沖縄.jpg



大和 シブヤン海.jpg


fontessa
During 1944 they both had the same AA layout but the Musashi had more 13.2 mm guns on one side (the port-side I believe). She was more asymmetrical than the Yamato but I can’t see in the photos. I then go for the No. 1 Main Battery paint color which as we know the Musashi’s No. 1 Main Battery was a dark grey and the Yamato’s was the same color as the rest.
I had no idea about the details of their anti-aircraft equipment, so I looked it up and found out:
Both Yamato and Musashi were renovated one after another in 1944, and the two secondary guns (15.5cm triple turrets) installed on both sides of the chimney were removed, and anti-aircraft armament was strengthened. However, while Yamato was equipped with six 12.7cm twin high-angle cannons and was equipped with 12 twin high-angle guns, and 24 high-angle cannons, Musashi did not have any additional high-angle cannons, only the high-angle cannon pedestal. I installed a triple 25mm machine gun on top of it. (This is said to be because the 12.7cm high-angle gun could not be manufactured in time.) As a result, the number of high-angle guns remained at 12 with 6 twin guns, half of that of the Yamato. Musashi was also planned to be equipped at a later date, but in the end, she sank without having the opportunity to do so. I can't find out anything about 13.2 mm guns.

The picture below shows their anti-aircraft equipment. Since Yamato was in its final state, it was more dense than Musashi. The red squares in the figure below are the relevant parts. I understand that it is impossible to differentiate between these from aerial photographs.


大和 武蔵 対空砲座.jpg


fontessa
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BayonetOnAZero
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Re: IJN Yamato or IJN Musashi?

Post by BayonetOnAZero » 11 Oct 2023 23:33

fontessa wrote:
11 Oct 2023 22:51
BayonetOnAZero wrote:
11 Oct 2023 21:57
fontessa wrote:
11 Oct 2023 21:38
BayonetOnAZero wrote:
11 Oct 2023 18:31
fontessa wrote:
10 Oct 2023 19:53

She looks like Yamato.
Yamato shown blow also had ”black” 1st turret.



大和.jpg


fontessa
The issue here is that that’s the same image but rotated 90º clockwise. I know that the Musashi had the dark grey paint on the No. 1 Main Battery but as far as I have seen in the photos of Yamato during 1944, she never had a dark grey paint on the No. 1 Main Battery.
Oh, understood. Sorry for the rough investigation.

The upper photo shows Yamato on 7 April 1945 at Tokyo Time. The semicircle between No. 1 and No. 2 was 25 mm MC urrets made of sandbags that were hastily constructed for "Okinawa" Operation. Main Battery No.1 was not "Black" clearly.
The lower photo says that she was Yamato on 26 October 1944 at Tokyo Time at Sibuyan Sea. The VADM Flag on the rear mast indicated that VADM Kurita was on board. Can you identify her as Yamato from the anti-aircraft fire equipment? The A-A equipment must have been denser than Musashi. Unfortunately, it's not clear because the photo was right after the bomb hit Main Battery No.1, but to me, it looks like the left fronts portions of No. 1 and No. 2 Main Battery were the same color. I'm not confident though...
Are there any clearer photos in the U.S. Archives?


大和 沖縄.jpg



大和 シブヤン海.jpg


fontessa
During 1944 they both had the same AA layout but the Musashi had more 13.2 mm guns on one side (the port-side I believe). She was more asymmetrical than the Yamato but I can’t see in the photos. I then go for the No. 1 Main Battery paint color which as we know the Musashi’s No. 1 Main Battery was a dark grey and the Yamato’s was the same color as the rest.
I had no idea about the details of their anti-aircraft equipment, so I looked it up and found out:
Both Yamato and Musashi were renovated one after another in 1944, and the two secondary guns (15.5cm triple turrets) installed on both sides of the chimney were removed, and anti-aircraft armament was strengthened. However, while Yamato was equipped with six 12.7cm twin high-angle cannons and was equipped with 12 twin high-angle guns, and 24 high-angle cannons, Musashi did not have any additional high-angle cannons, only the high-angle cannon pedestal. I installed a triple 25mm machine gun on top of it. (This is said to be because the 12.7cm high-angle gun could not be manufactured in time.) As a result, the number of high-angle guns remained at 12 with 6 twin guns, half of that of the Yamato. Musashi was also planned to be equipped at a later date, but in the end, she sank without having the opportunity to do so. I can't find out anything about 13.2 mm guns.

The picture below shows their anti-aircraft equipment. Since Yamato was in its final state, it was more dense than Musashi. The red squares in the figure below are the relevant parts. I understand that it is impossible to differentiate between these from aerial photographs.



大和 武蔵 対空砲座.jpg



fontessa
Yeah now that I think about it I think it was 25mm...

This clears things to a bit lol. So it is the Yamato then.
What has happened has happened, history is history. We must accept and embrace the things that we are passionate about and the atrocities that had been committed. Denying history is an atrocity in itself.

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fontessa
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Re: IJN Yamato or IJN Musashi?

Post by fontessa » 12 Oct 2023 00:37

BayonetOnAZero wrote:
11 Oct 2023 23:33
So it is the Yamato then.
I think that the two ships I uploaded in #4 were Yamato, and the ship you uploaded in #1 was Musashi.

fontessa

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BayonetOnAZero
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Re: IJN Yamato or IJN Musashi?

Post by BayonetOnAZero » 12 Oct 2023 17:43

fontessa wrote:
12 Oct 2023 00:37
BayonetOnAZero wrote:
11 Oct 2023 23:33
So it is the Yamato then.
I think that the two ships I uploaded in #4 were Yamato, and the ship you uploaded in #1 was Musashi.

fontessa
I see, I thought I had seen the 12.7cm gun on the #1 photo, but it does appear that there may not be any.
What has happened has happened, history is history. We must accept and embrace the things that we are passionate about and the atrocities that had been committed. Denying history is an atrocity in itself.

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fontessa
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Re: IJN Yamato or IJN Musashi?

Post by fontessa » 01 Dec 2023 15:01

I found a relatively large photo, Photo No.2, that has been colorized from Photo No.1. Photo No.3 shows the arrangement of Yamato and Musashi's anti-aircraft guns. In Photo No.2, the anti-aircraft guns on the port side appear to be badly damaged. According to the record, the bomb that hit the center port side penetrated two deck layers and exploded in the middle deck crew compartment. Did the Helldiver drop 2,000-pound armor-piercing bombs?


武蔵 A.jpg

武蔵 D.jpg

大和 武蔵 対空砲座 B.jpg


fontessa
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jbroshot
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Re: IJN Yamato or IJN Musashi?

Post by jbroshot » 01 Dec 2023 23:01

fontessa wrote:
01 Dec 2023 15:01
I found a relatively large photo, Photo No.2, that has been colorized from Photo No.1. Photo No.3 shows the arrangement of Yamato and Musashi's anti-aircraft guns. In Photo No.2, the anti-aircraft guns on the port side appear to be badly damaged. According to the record, the bomb that hit the center port side penetrated two deck layers and exploded in the middle deck crew compartment. Did the Helldiver drop 2,000-pound armor-piercing bombs?

fontessa
According to the "Airplane Characteristics & Performance" for the SB2C-1A issued on 1 April 1944 by the Bureau of Aeronautics of the Navy Department,
this model of the Helldiver could carry 1x 1,600lb OR 2x 1,000lb armor-piercing bombs.
This ACP used to be available for download but the site has moved, changed its name and ACP has not been put again, yet.

https://www.generalstaff.org/CDA/Aircraft.htm

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fontessa
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Re: IJN Yamato or IJN Musashi?

Post by fontessa » 02 Dec 2023 17:31

jbroshot wrote:
01 Dec 2023 23:01
fontessa wrote:
01 Dec 2023 15:01
I found a relatively large photo, Photo No.2, that has been colorized from Photo No.1. Photo No.3 shows the arrangement of Yamato and Musashi's anti-aircraft guns. In Photo No.2, the anti-aircraft guns on the port side appear to be badly damaged. According to the record, the bomb that hit the center port side penetrated two deck layers and exploded in the middle deck crew compartment. Did the Helldiver drop 2,000-pound armor-piercing bombs?

fontessa
According to the "Airplane Characteristics & Performance" for the SB2C-1A issued on 1 April 1944 by the Bureau of Aeronautics of the Navy Department,
this model of the Helldiver could carry 1x 1,600lb OR 2x 1,000lb armor-piercing bombs.
This ACP used to be available for download but the site has moved, changed its name and ACP has not been put again, yet.

https://www.generalstaff.org/CDA/Aircraft.htm
Thanks. Helldiver was very powerful. Val could carry only a 250kg bomb, and even Suisei a 500kg. I think Musashi was hit with a 1,600lb AP which was roughly equivalent to IJN 800kg AP. In Pearl Harbor, Kate had to penetrate the horizontal armor of U.S. battleships from an altitude of 3,000 meters to obtain gravity assistance. So the diving Helldiver would not have been able to inflict fatal damage on Musashi.

Another interesting photo. I believe that the armor-piercing bomb that hit turret No.1 was bounced back by the 27 cm thick armor of the turret roof, and then the delay fuse was activated in the air.
武蔵 F.jpg

武蔵 装甲.jpg

fontessa
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Re: IJN Yamato or IJN Musashi?

Post by BayonetOnAZero » 04 Dec 2023 19:53

Thanks. Helldiver was very powerful. Val could carry only a 250kg bomb, and even Suisei a 500kg. I think Musashi was hit with a 1,600lb AP which was roughly equivalent to IJN 800kg AP. In Pearl Harbor, Kate had to penetrate the horizontal armor of U.S. battleships from an altitude of 3,000 meters to obtain gravity assistance. So the diving Helldiver would not have been able to inflict fatal damage on Musashi.

Another interesting photo. I believe that the armor-piercing bomb that hit turret No.1 was bounced back by the 27 cm thick armor of the turret roof, and then the delay fuse was activated in the air.

武蔵 F.jpg



武蔵 装甲.jpg


fontessa
Some interesting information fontessa. I just thought it failed to penetrate the turret, but didn’t think it actually bounced off the turret.
What has happened has happened, history is history. We must accept and embrace the things that we are passionate about and the atrocities that had been committed. Denying history is an atrocity in itself.

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fontessa
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Re: IJN Yamato or IJN Musashi?

Post by fontessa » 05 Dec 2023 09:26

BayonetOnAZero wrote:
04 Dec 2023 19:53
Thanks. Helldiver was very powerful. Val could carry only a 250kg bomb, and even Suisei a 500kg. I think Musashi was hit with a 1,600lb AP which was roughly equivalent to IJN 800kg AP. In Pearl Harbor, Kate had to penetrate the horizontal armor of U.S. battleships from an altitude of 3,000 meters to obtain gravity assistance. So the diving Helldiver would not have been able to inflict fatal damage on Musashi.

Another interesting photo. I believe that the armor-piercing bomb that hit turret No.1 was bounced back by the 27 cm thick armor of the turret roof, and then the delay fuse was activated in the air.

武蔵 F.jpg



武蔵 装甲.jpg


fontessa
Some interesting information fontessa. I just thought it failed to penetrate the turret, but didn’t think it actually bounced off the turret.
There may have been an error in my previous post, so I'd like to take that down.

fontessa

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BayonetOnAZero
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Re: IJN Yamato or IJN Musashi?

Post by BayonetOnAZero » 05 Dec 2023 19:28

fontessa wrote:
05 Dec 2023 09:26
BayonetOnAZero wrote:
04 Dec 2023 19:53
Thanks. Helldiver was very powerful. Val could carry only a 250kg bomb, and even Suisei a 500kg. I think Musashi was hit with a 1,600lb AP which was roughly equivalent to IJN 800kg AP. In Pearl Harbor, Kate had to penetrate the horizontal armor of U.S. battleships from an altitude of 3,000 meters to obtain gravity assistance. So the diving Helldiver would not have been able to inflict fatal damage on Musashi.

Another interesting photo. I believe that the armor-piercing bomb that hit turret No.1 was bounced back by the 27 cm thick armor of the turret roof, and then the delay fuse was activated in the air.

武蔵 F.jpg



武蔵 装甲.jpg


fontessa
Some interesting information fontessa. I just thought it failed to penetrate the turret, but didn’t think it actually bounced off the turret.
There may have been an error in my previous post, so I'd like to take that down.

fontessa
Oh 8O
What has happened has happened, history is history. We must accept and embrace the things that we are passionate about and the atrocities that had been committed. Denying history is an atrocity in itself.

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